Speaker 1 1:24

The , and

Speaker 2 1:56

Hello everyone. And welcome to me . Head Osner podcast, episode 11, live on YouTube for the first time. Uh , I'm your host of the cast line . And as always, I'm joined by my delightful cohos. Like Pollion where we discuss our great Armenian history, covering different people, eras and events. How are you, Mike?

Speaker 3 2:16

I'm a little nervous. Yeah . Thanks

Speaker 2 2:17

To you. Oh , well we had to do this eventually, right. Uh , yeah. But you know, yeah. Very exciting. Very exciting. We got , uh , we got some viewers. Thank you for joining us, please. Like, and uh, I think we're live on Facebook as well, so , um, you can chat live through us and, and if you have any questions you can, you know, on the site , there's a chat option. Um, today's topic is history of Licia and our guest is historian. Give NAZA . This is going to be a great show as G is so knowledgeable about our history. Uh , I mean, I can listen to him all day <laugh> I know. Yeah . Um, now before I introduce G uh , I, and start our topic, I wanna talk about a few things first. I want to thank everyone who keeps writing to us , um, and sending us message through Instagram. Um, it's so overwhelming and we're humbled. So many people have reached out to us. Yeah.

Speaker 3 3:17

It's pretty interesting getting some messages from people all

Speaker 2 3:20

Over the world now . Yeah. Yeah. And , uh, couple of people I wanna mention , uh , first , um , Andrew, Chad borne from Portland, Maine, who's listening to us. Uh , we had a nice chat , uh , through Instagram with him. And , uh , he said, you know, he gave us so much great feedback and he said something that stuck with us. And , uh , and I'm gonna quote him , uh , as far as for the podcast, he said, keep it up. Truth must prevail. Your podcast is a candle burning in the dark. Um, uh , thank you. That means so much to us. Uh , Andrew. So, you know, we got plenty of , uh , listeners, it it's , it's , it's growing by the numbers. We're almost 3000 subscribers now, which is amazing. We've been on, this is our 11th episode. So basically 3000. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so , uh , another person who reached out to us , uh, we have a listener from , uh , Blairsville, Georgia, and her name is Emily Wilson. Now she messaged us , uh , on Instagram and I was driving. So I had my wife, Diana read the message to me. And I honestly got a little bit emotional because it, it , my , and so much, and I just want to read what she wrote. Um, this is what Emily said. I'm so grateful to have found this podcast. My maternal grandmother , uh , grandmother is a hundred percent Armenian her father and his brother escaped Armenian genocide and were able to make it to Greece and eventually came to the us in 1921 and lived in the Bronx and built their life. Um, learning more about my Armenian heritage has helped me understand myself as an individual individual, a little better through some of the genetic testing, like 23 and me, which I've done as well. Um, that I've done. I was so surprised to see how strong the Armen genetics are. Even in my daughter. Her Armenia genetics are still at a very prominent percentage, even though it's been diluted for the lack of better term. We live in Ru uh , rural Georgia USA. So it's important to me that my daughter learns about her Armenian heritage and just how special and ancient it is , is , and then pass this to on her children one day. She also says the connection with , uh , the connection that we Armenians feel to each other can only be understood by other Armenians. So thank you for taking the time to share your research on this podcast. I'm I'm curious what states we don't occupy. Yeah . I know a rule joy . I mean, that's amazing. And you know, you and I set out this goal , uh, and it was to reach, you know, everyone around the world, Armenians and non Armenians, but especially Armen who may not know that they're Armenian or, or maybe our third, fourth generation. Yeah . Or something like that , that much , they don't know much about their history. It could be through marriage or just generation changing without the knowledge being passed on. And so this certifies that , uh , you know , what we set out to do is working, and this has always been our goal. It is . So , um , okay. So let's officially start the show. Our guest is to naan who has been patiently waiting in the green room. <laugh> we should bring in , right? Yeah, we should bring, okay . All right . Give ready jail from right . Uh , hi. Gevo how are you? Hello. Hi guys. How's it going? Hi, Gevo good. Thank you. Um , so let me officially, those of you who don't know , uh , G Nazan give is a historian who received his BA and ma in history and Armenian studies from UCLA and after completing his extensive research in the national archives of Armenia received his PhD from the , uh , Yvan state university, his field of interest within Armenia , uh , Armenian history is broad covering different periods from the ancient , uh, from the Asian times to present times basically. Um, K again, thank you so much for joining us. Um , you've been a great friend to the show and thank

Speaker 4 7:19

You for having me. Uh , why can , why ? And Mike , thank you so much. Thank you for giving this great opportunity, you know , pleasure honor . As

Speaker 2 7:29

<laugh> , um , you know, we , we , we love history and you're, you're someone who has helped us, you know? Yeah . Thank you. Thank

Speaker 3 7:35

You for your information.

Speaker 2 7:37

Yeah. With the research and everything. Um, and, and we're grateful for that. So, and when it came to the, of Licia, as much as we, you know, you can do a lot of research and especially from your writings , uh , we just felt it'd be right to hear it from you because I , I think, you know, it , it would do justice for us to do it . Yeah . So ,

Speaker 3 7:57

Well , it's a major, it's a major source of our research, you know , um, a lot of the information you've spent your life, you know, putting to together it's some of the stuff is mind blowing , the information that you have available for people like us and others around the world really is. So thank you from , for , from both of us. And

Speaker 2 8:18

By the way, thank you for , uh , waking up <laugh> isn't Armenia , it's

Speaker 3 8:22

It to a Afghani

Speaker 2 8:24

Time . Is it work ? It's uh ,

Speaker 4 8:26

It's like 7:00 AM. Seven . Wow . Talking ,

Speaker 2 8:30

Talking about kingdom of Licia at seven in the morning. Yeah . Yeah . Thank you. Thank you for doing that. Um , so , um, I mean, to start the show, you know, we wanna talk about Licia , so good morning. Good

Speaker 3 8:43

Morning, ke

Speaker 2 8:44

Yep . There you go. Yeah . Um, so we have some questions for you, obviously, sorry, I'm scrambling here , here, because I have also , uh , you know, multiple , multiple things, multiple things happening. We have , uh , we're live on clubhouse as well, by the way. So we might get some , uh , questions from there and to all the people who are watching, if you have, you can, like I said, through the live chat, you can send your question and , uh , end of the show will have cable answer it. So , um, you want to kind of,

Speaker 3 9:17

Well , um, you know, we have put together a bunch of questions that we are going to absolutely grill you with, So get ready to enter the Golet.

Speaker 2 9:32

Yeah. Um , it , it it's it's <laugh> what do you call it when they're , um , when the cops do it interrogation, interrogation interrogate.

Speaker 3 9:43

Well , my mind full on historical interrogation.

Speaker 2 9:46

Um , so, so to start off , uh , what I wanted to do is , you know, first question is obviously we want to know , uh , the , the beginning of it. So , um, if, if we were to go back in time , uh , what would be the earliest history of Licia and when do we see the Armenian presence give birth in the LIC region? Mm-hmm

Speaker 4 10:08

<affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. Um, so , um, as many, as many knows Licia is actually, you know, it's, it's , uh , in a , in a region, which is , uh, basically called the Eastern Mediterranean sea basin. Uh, and it's, it's, it's, it's a region that , uh, basically is part of the historic , uh , Armenian Homeland, because what is interesting , uh , guys is that , um , the mountain area of Licia, the tourist mountain , uh , mountains and the mountain Licia is actually , uh, an area that the Armenian Highland or Armenian plateau begins from. So , uh , throughout arm ancients , uh , war actually located in , in , in , in an area that at least part encompass this part of C . So , uh , basically , uh , the Armenian presence you can safely say comes from the most Asian times , there will are a number of ancient Armenian kingdoms that unfortunately we don't know a lot, but we do know that we're located in this area and area specifically , uh , I'm talking about the kingdom of HYA , which is mentioned in ancient type inscriptions of the second LAN BC , uh <inaudible> , which is again mentioned in mid second BC and other kingdom. So from the most ancient times guys , uh , Armenians were actually living in this area Inia. And as I said, even Armenian Thailand begins the tourist mountains, which are basically the mountain is part of , uh , so , uh , you know , uh , this , this is an important point that we have to make. And I also wanna add that sometimes some people, they only think of like the territory. Remember in the last show , we talked about greater Armenia, which was made up of , uh , 15 provinces of , uh , uh , Armenia , uh , but , uh , Armenia itself is much greater than even greater Armenia. Okay. Because greater Armenia only encompassed that famous river, but to the west of the EU river was the territory that it was called lesser Armenia or Armenia minor. So this is also Armenia guys and parts of Armenia minor actually extended all the way to the office . And at times , uh , it , it , it , and it , again, expanded lesser Armenia talking about , and , you know , the Greeks themselves pointed out , you know , Armenia is also to the west of the Euphrates river and , you know , reaching the black sea and going all the way down to the territory of the tourist mountains, which is, again, as we said, this area of Licia Kaia , and in , in even the Armenian sources also mentioned that, you know, it has a very significant arm, new population from the most ancient times. And , you know, was part of this, you know, Armenian world, if we can put it in , in that way. So the Armenian presence in this territory, you can say begin from the most Asian times .

Speaker 3 13:54

Yeah. We, we , we mentioned it in the tigon great , uh , series that when he was conquering a lot of the lands to the west, there was a lot of Armenian population that remained from centuries upon centuries prior to that. And it was just a matter of bringing everybody together and, you know, forming what was the arm Armenian empire at the time, you know , that's true . Right ,

Speaker 4 14:18

Right , right , right. Yeah. Uh , yeah, Mike, you're absolutely right. Uh , that was , uh , like in 83 BC when to down the great mm-hmm , <affirmative> incorporated Licia into his, you know, Armenian state or an Armenian empire, but an important , uh , point to be made. You're making a good point, like Licia , as we said, like always had Armenian population, but, you know, politically most of the time it was obviously outside of Armenia. Yeah. You know, it was part of , uh , ancient kingdoms. You know, I , I said, like I mentioned those early Armenia states, but after that , um , you know, politically it fell under various empires that, you know, later on expanded and took over this area, although for the time being, which is also quite interesting, a kingdom of art , uh , also incorporated this area through the conquest of man and especially AR first , also incorporated parts of CDC into its empire. But, you know , it switched hands so many times. And later on, it was part of the C empire. Uh, the solutions , as you know, was , uh , you know , one of the off offshoots when the empire of , uh , Alexander the gray , uh , split into three parts, the, which, you know, was , uh , solutions was one of the generals of, of , uh , a Alexander , the great , he created his own empire and Celia became part of that empire later on. It became part of the Roman empire. But very briefly, as you rightly pointed out, it was actually part of the Armenian state yeah . During the , on the great , uh, and you know , um, it's also quite interesting. I'm jumping a little bit ahead, but even , uh, Roman we have Roman accounts from the fourth century that actually mentioned that, you know, Armenia begins or Armenian presence begins , uh, in area Eastern Mediterranean sea basin. And actually there's a famous , uh , Roman historian, AIAN Mars , you know , in the fourth century , he actually named , um , called , uh , the Gulf of Alexandr , which is in this , uh , area in the Eastern Mediterranean , uh , sea base . And he called it the Armenian golf or, or golf of Armenia. So even like woman , um , historians , uh , and , and , and , and sources mentioned that there , that , you know, Armenians were already , uh , in , in very significant numbers to , in this time . And I think this is an important point because sometimes, you know, people think that, you know, the Armenian presence dates from medieval or late medieval times , like, especially in the 11th century, but, you know, this is the contrary to historic evidence. There was already pretty significant Armenian presence , very significant presence.

Speaker 3 17:19

And , and , you know, like , like we've been, we , like, you've been saying we've had, we've had Armenians in different states, different provinces, different areas, very relevant areas in and across a what what's called Asia minor . Right. So it, what , what I wanna know is what, what do some of the mainstream sources or classical sources to about that relationship between Armenians in Licia and Armenians from greater Armenia or different parts of, you know, predating the Kelechi times. Right, right,

Speaker 4 17:53

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. That's a , that's a good point. Like , uh , uh , well, like I said , uh , a very important source is , uh , Ambi honest , Marc , which is an important, you know, classical , uh , historian , uh , of the fourth century. And he obviously basically points out that, you know, like, you know , Armenia, even Armenia as a country begins in this area, roughly. So it's even beyond greater Armenia as I point out. And what is interesting, there is also another very important source. Uh, John Christ , who was actually patriarch of Constantinople. He also talks about like very significant in the fourth century, significant Armen presence in, in , in Felicia , uh, to such an extent, Mike , that , uh, already by the , uh, sixth century, the Byzantines obviously Cesia was incorporated into the Byzantine empire , uh, which also was known as the Eastern Roman empire. Or we call it as an Eastern enrollment empire. They, they thought of themselves as DRO empire. Uh , but you know, it was part of Viant . But what is interesting is that it , these , for most part, this area of , uh , lesser Armenia and Licia and Kaia, and even a joining air , vast areas was , were known as the Armenia team , a team was basically a structure. It was a military political structure that , um, the Byzantines divided their empire into. And the Armenia team was a large, vast land, which obviously had board the name Armenia , uh , which was made up of those territories that the Byzantines actually conquered of Armenia. So Licia , Kaia all the way to the , uh , black sea and extending down to the Mediterranean sea and reaching all the way well into the Western part of , you know , kingdom of former kingdom of greater Armenia, along with lesser Armenia were part of this Armenia team . And even before that , the Byzantines actually divided this area into the first, second , third and fourth Armenia as provinces of design team . Uh , but it was sort of like more were , uh , incorporated into the Armenia team or Armenia team as <inaudible> in , in those sources by, by Viant team . So, you know , we clearly see like that, you know, it , you know , obviously there had to be very significant Armenian population. And obviously we know , you know, there were only Armenians here , they bring Syrians and different nationalities, but it was very significant presence, Armenian presence that, you know , the business is , uh , decided to, you know, basically name this area , the Armenia team . And , um , another important aspect is the area was defended by local Armenian princess, the NAS , uh , we talked about the last time , which were their Armenian aristocracy mm-hmm <affirmative> . So basically locally, most of the towns throughout CIA, you know, this Armenia team were ruled by local Armenian governors. Uh, not all of them, some of them were Greek, some of them were nationality, but, you know, our , the Armenian , uh , presence was the most important. And since the team , as I said, it was administrative by also military unit . Obviously the, the , you know, the aristocracy , uh , played a Q role because it provided the armed forces made of the Armenian army, especially the Cav in defense of this sort of like a , you know, it was like a , a borderland area with , at that time in the still seventh century , sixth , seventh century with Sasanian Iran. And later on when Sasanian Iran was taken over by the Arabs against the Arab Cal . So it , it owned sort of like for five buffer, which was defended mostly by still, you know, Armenian , uh , local.

Speaker 2 22:13

Okay . Well that kind of you , you covered , uh , the question I had about the Byzantine empire I was gonna . You just had your question stolen. Yeah. I know you just, that was just taken right out of it. No , uh , no, no, no, it's fine. I , I had a question about the Byzantine empire , but you , you answered it. So, you know, but I I'll just go to my , uh, next one , uh , which is , um, let's talk a bit about the Rubian dynasty. Um , what was the background , uh, of , uh , of the first basically , uh , uh , Ruben the first I should say.

Speaker 4 22:47

Right, right. Uh , so like we said , um, um, since already there was a very significant Armenia presence in this area before , uh , even, you know, the Ruben established his principality. Um, it was, it was, it wasn't, it wasn't a difficult task to muster enough of , uh , forces to accomplish this task. So , uh , as I said , uh , while , uh , you know, Armenian Lords for most part already in the tent , especially in the 11th century, established a very important presence, a lot of these Byzantine governors officials, they were , you know, Armenians with their own armed forces. Uh , and , um , even before Ruben , the first as we came to know him established himself , uh , several important key Armenian Lords, they established themselves in this area. So to give a brief background what happened, which was a very CATA please , and , uh , 10 45 , the kingdom of BA in , uh , in Armenia , uh , fell. It was actually more incorporated into the Byzantine empire and a lot of the Armenian nobility along with the king Kim gogi , the second was the last BA . It actually relocated their relocated, their forces to territory of lesser Armenia and some to territory of , so there was even a further influx of Armenian nobility , Armenian, you know, just general population in this area , which created only the background for Ruben to come to power. So , uh, when , uh , gogi thei actually died already in , in , in , in Caesarea, in , in gas , which is a less, a lesser Armenia , uh , in , in Kaia this area , uh, he basically , uh , Ruben was , uh , one of the , uh , Nobles of actually of BA background who after the passing of debt of GGI was actually unfortunately assassinated in 10 79 . Uh, he actually , uh, decided to move down to the area of mountains, the impregnable, this is a very impregnable area of the tourist mountains, as we talked about, he decided to relocate area , which already , uh , was controlled by an Armenian important Lord by the name of VA , uh , VA . So VA VA who actually controlled this vast area extended from Armenia all the way to incorporating the SWAT of land and part of Licia actually controlled it. So Ruben , when he came , he basically like joined forces with , uh , VA , uh , but quickly Ruben in his own, right . He basically goes to the occasion , uh , he established himself in a strong stronghold of KTAR , which is in the tourist mountains, as I said, and in 10 80 Hecla himself as a prince of this principality , uh , of , uh , many principality Armenian principality and obviously was in named after him. So he being the founder named Ruben , the succeed , uh , rumors were named Rubens who came after him. So he established a Ruben dynasty in 10 80 , and basically , uh, he quickly after that via Ruben needs , uh , ex expanded their territory and conquered new castles and strong goals in the tourist mountains initially just in , uh , mountain AIA area. But ultimately, especially in the 12th century quickly extended the rule through , uh , plain of CIA , which is the territory, a joining immediately the Mediterranean seat . Uh, and you know, it , it , as I said, in , in a matter of few decades , uh , why it became a very powerful principality that the local , uh, Byzantine and other rulers power S later on C powers <inaudible> .

Speaker 3 27:42

Yeah . Yeah. And that's, and that's, that's what I wanted to get to next, because we're from, you know, based on a timeline we're going into what the 11th were in the 11th century. Yeah. Right. And I'm, yeah , I'm fascinated. Always have been, even before I considered myself a history, buffer history fanatic. Um, I've always been fascinated with the crusades. I don't know why I just always have , um, and going into the crusades , um , we know Armenia played or Licia , Armenia played a massive, massive role in a lot of those travel routes from Europe through to the middle east, you know, down south , um, from the Christian crusaders and so on, so forth, even the Muslim crusaders going back and forth. What, how important was that role that the Armenians played during this time?

Speaker 4 28:32

Right, right. That's a , that's a great question, Mike. Uh, well, you know, if, if you, if you love the crusades, Alicia , Armenian history is for you, you know, I know , I mean, it's so intertwined with the crusades, Mike it's, it's just, you know, part and parcel. Uh, in fact, you know, it's, it's even like various popes and other, you know , authors have said it, you know, without the Armenian , uh , role in the crusades, it , the outcome would be totally different. You know, it was like the first crusade would be even a total FA failure and later crusade would most, probably not even take place, you know, if Armenians did not take part and actually not, you know , help out the crusaders and later on the Crusader states. So very briefly, just to point out , uh , Mike , uh, the crusade, as you know , uh , began in 10 96 and by 10 97, you know, on the call of, of Paul , uh, basically they reached , uh, this territory of first Asia minor, you know, before that obviously Constantinople Asia minor. And in 10 97 , they already reached , uh , Celia Armenia. And , um , uh , at that time already, it was ruled by constantly constant of , uh , Licia , uh , Armenian prints . Uh , and then he basically in 97 , he played a very important role in providing provisions for this, you know, already at this time, very weakened in acade troops and , uh , very quickly , uh, the crusaders were able to recuperate and, you know , uh , Armenian detachments also, you know , uh, joined the Crusader army and it marched first of all, to the Armenian city controlled by Armenians prince tos to the pre , uh , city of , uh , at that time, no as ESA , but historically Armenian UJA , uh , also later on known as UFA . So , uh , first of all, the crusaders with Armenian help actually with help of prince tos , they established themselves in , um, in ESSA. And then later on a little bit later, basically Baldwin, who was one of the leaders of, of the crusades. He actually established himself as the king of Jerusalem. Uh , so under the kingdom of Jerusalem was established again with, you know, our massive Armenian support anti was taken before that. And then , uh, you know, other , uh , like, yeah . <inaudible> . Yeah. And so the , so the history of Armenia at this time, CLIC Armenia is very closely inter intertwined with, with , with the , see , now

Speaker 3 31:28

I have a , I have a follow up question to that. I know it wasn't on our, our , our interrogation. You don't have. Yeah. So I, but, but you know, I know a little bit about this time period. So I have to ask this question, cuz it sparked, when you were talking about the crusaders now with the crusaders we had the Knight's Templar and different Knights factions, correct. That may have been, I guess, call it occupying, not occupying, but kind of settling in that area for what hundreds of years. So can, is there anything that you can elaborate on, on how the Armenians of Kika became, I guess, intertwined with a lot of these Knight's factions, especially, and I know for a fact that the Knight's Templar famous Knight's Templar were also involved in this time period in that area.

Speaker 4 32:18

Oh, absolutely. Um , yeah. Uh , well, as you mentioned , uh , Mike , uh, these like , uh, orders, they were known as Shal monastic orders . So all of them like starting with the Knights temps , which I believe is the oldest of them. Uh , they also had a very important presence in Licia , uh, the other , uh , orders as well. Uh , the hospitals , uh , the Titanic nights , again, very important order. Uh, they all , all established themselves and actually, especially Mike in the 12th century, the, the Knights Templers played a very important role in , uh , not only establishing themselves, but they actually were one of the allies of Armenian princess. The Ruben aids were closely allied for most part, most part, I say for most part, because, you know, this is an important thing at times, you know, even <inaudible> states fought with each other, for example, like the , uh , like the kingdom of Jerusalem would fight against, you know , uh , county of Edesa and Antioch would fight like times . And then , uh , Muslim states that were adjoining these states, they would also fight , fight the crusaders, fight the Armenians, but at times they would , um , actually be ally with the Armenians and , uh , actually fight maybe another crusade say that would , they would , could be a suicide. So I think it's also important to remember that it wasn't like clear cut like this holy war, Muslims fighting the Christians, you know? Um , but , uh , coming back to these orders . Yeah, you're absolutely right. In fact , uh , uh , uh , S his name was male . He , he ruled from 1170 to 1175 before , uh , rising to power . He was one of the commanders was a key figure in Armenia , uh , in 10 I'm sorry , 1160s . And later on, he became, you know, a ruler in 11 70, 11 75 . So that's just one example. And , and the temples , they had very important castles Armenia that they actually controlled very important castle, which was like on the borderline of Licia . And Antioch is the castle was the castle of August , castle of August . Uh , that was like an important castle that , you know, was a , a Templer castle, but many others as well, but Barras was a very large, important castle. And later on, Mike, we also see, especially after , uh , the reign of Lev in the magnificent, in the 13th century, you know , uh , S and the Titanic nights , they sort of basically roll world prominence then , for example, the Toan , uh , then the Templers . Yeah. So these two orders, then they , in the third, 13th century during the rain , for example, of , um , level on the magnificent and succeeding, like head to the first and others , uh, these orders played a more prominent role. So like in the Armenian court, it would have like Armenian nights , all like were , were also had a very I presence . And just generally like that at this time, Armenia , uh , and Licia and Armenia for most part, this is also an important point. Like it was actually called kingdom of Armenia because it wasn't Licia that Armenia state was restored . So it's important guys that at that time in the sources, it's not called Licia or even Armenia, it's called, you know, kingdom of Armenia. The king of was king of Armenia. Yeah . King of Armenia, you know , it was the Armenian kingdom. This is how like European and Muslim and all other sources were calling our kingdom. You know ,

Speaker 2 36:44

Since you mentioned that, I , I want , you know, when we talking about the, the first crusade, like during that time , um , what type of relationship or ties were built between , uh , Armenia and like Western Europe basically.

Speaker 4 36:58

Yeah. Yeah. That's a , that's a great follow up question of, I , uh , it's like, the evidence is so clear. Like when we look even at the , uh, some of the titles held by the , uh , various officials of the court, we see there's such a huge , uh, influence , uh, like formerly the titles that we had, like spot our for , for , for example , uh , during the LIC Armenia time became known as Constable or in Armenian variation was gusta or Guna , but it is like it's from the, from European Constable the chancellor, which is again like medieval Western European position was , uh , chancellor that was like in Armenian. Yeah . Um , and another interesting thing that I think you would , uh , find quite interesting is that , uh, the word that we even have today in modern Armenia for Mr . Which is Baron or in Western Armenian , uh , we say bottom right . Or Baron , right . It comes from this period it's from Baren Barron . Yeah . It's like bottom , like Buren , same story , which at this time, like the aristocracy, like the Barens mm-hmm <affirmative> , they call the bottom. So, and so , you know, bottom . So , so even it survives today in our modern Armenian usage, this hair . Yeah . You know, <laugh> , that's amazing. Which is quite a , so, yeah. And like , um, a lot of other things, like there was, and I have to make this point clear. It wasn't only one way, right? Like it wasn't just Armen incorporating a lot of these elements that crusaders and the Western Europeans in their own right . Were learning from Armenians and incorporating some of the Armenian, for example, I don't know, like , uh , architectural techniques, especially like church building castle building, they learned a lot from the Armenian master builders. And there's a lot of research that, you know, as a result of this , uh , close twining of Western Europe with kingdom , with Armen, some of the , some of the churches was a lot of back

Speaker 2 39:12

And forth , especially, I mean, we're known with our, the doms of our churches, right. The architecture, exactly . That that was something, oh , yes ,

Speaker 4 39:19

Yes . There's actually very important. Art historian. He has like a fundamental research is , uh , like Austria for a century ago, but still it's a monumental work. It's called Joseph Gosky . He , he did a very important, he like basically showed like how Armenian church architecture , castle building architecture. It basically from this connections ties of Armenians with Western Europe, it also spread , uh, to throughout Europe and beyond, you know, and , uh, it , it wasn't just like cultural, obviously all kinds of ties, political, cultural, socioeconomic. I mean, economy was very important. And , uh, you know , um , a lot of , uh , Europeans, they established themselves in Licia and they, they had communities, merchants and other, like people that lived in Licia at this time from like Western Europe , Europe, and, you know , uh , Armenian Kings actually gave a lot of exemptions to these merchant communities and that facilitated trade and commerce in Licia . So Armenian Kings were wise enough to basically give a lot of these tax exemptions to these communities , uh , from a cities like Venice all over, like from , from Belgium, from like different, different places. And these communities, merchant communities established themselves and already by , uh , the , uh , 12th and especially starting in the 13th century, LIC Armenia established a very strong, and it also established a very powerful , uh , military Navy. So it was at this time of Armenia was actually very strong Naval power because we had like access to the Mediterranean sea Armenia was a Mediterranean power. It was a nav Naval of the time. Well, they had to be , they had to be in that new region, you know, exactly and important, like example Mike is like , uh , Marco polo, you know, the famous traveler, of course , you know, he actually recounts his story of traveling from Venice all the way to China. And he , he says that, you know , I, I sailed on a , a Venetian ship, but, you know, before that his uncle actually sailed on an Armenian vessel. Uh, and he says that, you know, in 1271, I embarked in the very famous port of Armenian port of IAS . And then from when, when we actually actually disbar in IAS , then we took the land journey to China through, you know, ESIA Armenia all the way to like, through, you know, this area to, to China. Uh, and he says that, you know, he actually says that it was it's, it's , it's a rich land with powerful, you know, economy, the ports especially described AYA and, or other cities. And it's very important that, you know, he actually, you know, this was the route, like even the Venetians, they , the , you know, the route was basically the Armenian port of AYA . So can you imagine how important of , of course that was ,

Speaker 2 42:40

Of course, yeah . Look , um , I , I have a question from , uh, VA on , uh , was listening on clubhouses. He wanted to ask, can you , uh , he wants to ask if , uh , bogon comes from Constable.

Speaker 4 42:54

No, it doesn't bogon predates, you know, it has this , uh , uh , ties with , uh , with , um, uh, with , um , like middle Persian, to be honest, like with Parla and things like that. So it's like from the earlier period, it's not, it , it doesn't have to do with Constable gua . Gua is basically the archaic fall of gab would be spared , which is the military super commander of the Armenian armed forces.

Speaker 2 43:22

Got it. Oh , there you go on <laugh>.

Speaker 3 43:25

Well , I know, I know you earlier, you mentioned, I know I might be backtracking here a little bit. Um, you were talking about the kingdom, you know, people, everyone was recognizing, you know, this is the kingdom of Armenian. Now, when exactly was that proclaimed, did this happen ? And maybe if you could shed some light on how it happened, per

Speaker 4 43:45

Se. Right, right, right. Yeah. So basically , uh, in the 12th century, there were, you know, as we said, like , um , several crusades by the end of the 12th century. So , uh , and we had like several rulers after all , as he Ruben who established the principality Ruben Constantine , uh , to , uh , the , uh , level then tos , I'm sorry, Toros then level, then other that followed princess . And by the , uh , 12th , uh , century , uh , another crusade, the third crusade was launched. Uh , and when the third crusade was launched by combined forces, they're from European forces, it reached , um , Licia in 1190. So by this time already , um , Licia was very much Armenia kingdom of Armenia, I should say , uh , before the , at obviously principality our main principality that established itself , uh , for Lee . And when they reached , uh , headed by , uh , the holy Roman emperor , Frederick Barbara Rosa , it was basically the holy Roman, em empire was German , modern Germany for most part, this territory. Um , so , um, he basically , uh , Levon , uh , who was at this time still a prince Levon, the magnific magnificent. He actually helped this , uh , the third crusade. He actually joined forces with the third crusade, even before that Levon, you know, started his rule in 1187 . It was before that , uh , he , as a , as a military commander, he was very successful in defeating the cell ju of, you know, the cell had established themselves in Asia minor , uh , and to the basically north of , uh , LIC Armenia. So it was very fame . Um , you know, he succeeded in driving the cell away and he also helped to fight other Muslim powers, the Amir of Oleo , the masks , this territories, and you modern Syria and beyond , uh, the Egyptian mom looks and , and these forces later on. Uh, so , uh, so Fred , Barbara Rosa actually said that, you know , uh , you know, as an ally for your assistance , we're also going , you're gonna have our support. So basically Levon , uh , pretty , pretty much firmly level the magnific. And by end of the 12th century , uh , Mike, he , he was already in very powerful position. Yeah. He was respected by all the powers of, of the, of the area of the ancient Levant and even be beyond , uh , so the Byzantines respected his authority level on the magnificence. Uh, the crusaders acknowledged his power sorted the Muslims as well, like the Muslim powers. So like 1198 , Mike, he felt that he was strong enough to actually proclaim the kingdom complete powerful kingdom of , and that's what he exactly did. And 1198 in , on January the sixth Armenian Christmas day, January the , oh , that's interesting. Yeah. He , he specifically chose Armenian Christmas to crown himself, according to the Armenian white , uh , as the king of the, a restored kingdom of Armenia. Yeah . And he became king of all Armenians. This is an, an interesting thing because like, by him self crowning, the king of all Armenians, he actually acknowledged that his ultimate goal was the re unification under his kingdom of all arm Armenian territories. Yeah . Of like greater Armenia, lesser, Armenia. Right. Because he was, he , he was the authority and he was responsible for all Armenians. He was the king of all Armenians. Yeah. That goes by arm mean , yeah . That

Speaker 2 47:52

Goes back to what you were saying. Like, you know, it was, it was the kingdom of Armenia, not just solidity.

Speaker 4 47:57

Exactly . That's, that's what , uh , by , uh , to basically affirm that like a lot of, like for Armenians, from other parts of Armenia, they would flock to this restored kingdom of Armenia. Yeah. So like Armenian scholars, like Ellog different , uh , like , uh , from different monastic schools, they would come to Licia . They would come to capital cease . Uh , they would come to Tarsis actually level , the magnificent was crowned in Tarsis , uh , in the city of Tarsis they would come to sea . They would come to Jala , which was an important learning center. And , uh, a lot of our manuscripts of the period medieval manuscripts, the , the best of them, I would say Mike were actually produced , uh, during this , uh , time , uh, and you know, some of the most outstanding Armenian , uh, artists like , uh , to Rosaline like SAR pizza , and many others, they actually completed their illuminated manuscripts. They , their masterpiece during this time under the patronage of the Armenian Kings and Queens. So like Armenian, there was like a huge cultural of Armenian culture during this time. And it was all thanks to the restoration of the Armenian independence to the restoration of the kingdom of Armenia. So it was a very important role and a lot of the most important manuscripts even we have today for most part , uh , why they actually survived from this period, from the CDC Armen period and the illuminated manuscript school of CDC is considered one of the best, if not the best. Wow . Uh , so yeah, so I , so I wanna , like, it had a very sign, important significance, and still does that, you know, this restoration of Armenian independence ushered in this new sort of, you know, sometimes people even call it the silver age, you know, you can argue was like a second golden age of Armenian culture, but since , as you guys know, it's sometimes the golden age is considered the fifth century. Yeah . This is called like the silver age of Armenian culture and learning. Yeah .

Speaker 2 50:17

Before I ask my next question, I just want to thank everybody. Who's joined us on YouTube live. Uh , this is our first dream. Uh , we're excited. So please like, and share with , uh , everyone. Uh , we're actually live on Facebook too. <laugh> Bravo. Bravo to you. Yeah . Bravo with your surprises. I , I did . I actually, they didn't know I turned it on, but rely live on Facebook, so okay . But , uh, and everyone, my nervousness went away now. I'm like getting more nervous, right? Yeah . Yeah . Well, we're also live on clubhouse, so , uh , thank you for everybody who's tuning in. Um , you know , uh , we we're , we tend to do this, just the recording, but we'll have the recording live on, or it should be live on all the , uh , major platforms tomorrow. Um , let's talking about the dynasties , um, after the long reign of the , uh , Ruben dynasty , um, how did , uh , had Toit dynasty succeed them ?

Speaker 4 51:16

Mm-hmm <affirmative> right, right. Uh, so , uh , that's an important, so the head two meets via , they were actually one of the most powerful noble houses before, you know, actually becoming the Royal house of the kingdom of Armenia. And there was, they were, you know , uh, often at odds with Aruba needs , they clashed a lot with Aruba needs . Obviously, you know, they were also kind of like power hungry . Um, so , uh, when , uh , level the magnific magnificent, we , as I said, it was, you know, without a doubt, the most outstanding kidney of this period passed in , uh , 12, 19. He, his daughter , uh , Zelle or Isabel, she basically became the queen of Armenia in 1219, but she was, she was very young. She was like five, six years old. So , uh , so basically as a guardian, as a custodian of a rule , uh , constant team head to meet was actually assigned by the Armenian Nobles . So, you know, constant team head to meet , uh , this guardian custodian , uh , advisor , I don't know , like we call 'em a different way. Uh, he basically, you know, said, you know , uh , we have to end this feud and he was right. Obviously he himself was a head to meet . So he decided to basically marry off , uh, the head to meet prince head to the , we became head that prince head to , uh , with , uh , queen or Isabel. So when head to married of the head to house married with Zabel basically he became the new king of Armenia. So she was the queen Regent and in 1226 , why after Mary Jo and Zabel , he became the new king Armenia and thus in 1226 had to meet became the new Royal house of the kingdom of Armenia. So the succession, it was a very smooth succession. Yeah . Cause before that, I don't wanna get into that. There was a lot of infighting between the Rubens and head to meets . So this was a good way to bring these two powerful houses together. Yeah . You know, through marriage,

Speaker 2 53:41

The families , more , more movie references

Speaker 4 53:44

Ties , you know , which is very common practice of the time. Uh, so basically this ended this longstanding field and had to meet Armenia after that for a little bit less than like a century and a half.

Speaker 2 54:02

Well, you know, I , I'm gonna skip over your question. That's fine . Since we're talking about dynasties, I mean, you know, we had, how did the Luhan dynasty take over this was the marriage and Luhan was like the shortest period of dynasty, right. From what I know. Yes. They were . How

Speaker 4 54:18

Did you were jumping a little bit ahead, but I cover that . Yeah . Okay . Okay . Right , right . Yeah . Yeah. So like the , the Lu , which in French is Lu , it has like a French , uh, it it's a French origin , uh , already by the time of Lev and the magnificent , uh , VA . He actually married , uh , married , uh , Ella of , uh , Luan . The Luan were the, by the time of Lev and the magnific, the magnificent, they were the ruling house in fibrous , the Lu , oh . Which was a French, very powerful French , uh , you know, noble and aristocratic and Royal house, the Luin . Uh , so basically, and Zaba , you know, and they were basically like, after that, the Luan were already in a way they also had just like the head to me that Metro, that tr ties with the rub needs . So did the Luan, right? Because like he married into the house, like queen of Armenia was Ella Luan, wife of Levon , the magnifica magnificent. So , uh , later on, after the male line of the , uh , head in , uh , third , the 1342 , why 1342 , uh , ended the Lu automatically , uh , inherited the title and constantly, constantly the fourth in 1342 became the first Luan king on the Armenian throne. So , so he actually, yeah, so he actually became the first Lu Monarch and the Luin , you know, ruled and in kingdom of Armenia until it was four . So , uh ,

Speaker 3 56:03

Correct me if , correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, you're mentioning a prominent , uh , French lineage, right. Coming involved in Gillian dynasty. Yeah. Um, I know, I think I might have read in one of your articles <inaudible> that during the time of the crusades, a lot of the more powerful nobility that we had in Kon times or in that time era , um, had a very strong relationship, especially with the ranks .

Speaker 4 56:35

Absolutely. Yeah , absolutely. Uh , Mike , that's a very good point. And we have to point out when we say Franks at this time, all Western Europeans in the, you know, sources, especially like , uh , Eastern sources, they all call the Franks . Yes. So basically when we say Franks , I know like the French themselves, the later French played a huge, but it wasn't just a phrase . Like it was even like , uh , somebody like Frederick Barbara , like older Emory , it would be called Frank, you know, by like, I don't know , uh , outdoors of that time . So almost by default. Right, right . Yeah . But you were absolutely right. Like , uh , we talked about the intermarriages. Yes . So it was like , uh , you know , I didn't mention that, but like most of the Queens of the kingdom of Jerusalem were Armenian princesses of the Armenian, like rub needs and other families. We actually, you know , intermarried with the crusaders and vice versa, as I said. So there was a lot of intermarriage , uh , Mike between the like Armin Aristo. Yeah . And the Western European aristocracy. So this is how the Luan obviously inherited the throne , uh, how all of this play . And as I like a lot of, even when we look at the sources of the time, like there were noble families of complete Western European , uh , you know, extraction that were already playing a key role in kingdom of Armenia. When we look at the names, when we look at their , we have family aristocratic names, they're like, you know, Western European families that were already like , uh , very powerful princess in the kingdom, you know, like in the , in the Alrich , you know, system, right. There were like awards , uh , princess Barrs , uh , Knight , uh , Marshalls Marshall . That's another word that we narrated Marshall , like military commander, really from the start in Armenian, it entered like Marra JOF like as a Marshall . That was another thing that entered during this time. Wow. Uh , uh , we still have it in Western Armenian by the way, for, for Marshall , you know, the word Marra Jo . So , uh , so like , uh , yeah, I mean , that's like, they it's already, it was very important, but another important development, we jumped a little bit ahead. I want to cover during the head to me , period. If , if I may, if you have , if you don't have other questions. Sure.

Speaker 2 59:04

Go ahead . Sorry. That , that , that was my fault. I think

Speaker 4 59:08

Yeah's , yeah . There's some period before like the 14th,

Speaker 2 59:12

It might be my question for me. It was it's wait , wait , hold on. For me, it was like fault cuts , kiss . <laugh> We were just going through the Dyna seat . I was like, why not cover them all? I mean, what's the point, you know, so right . Let's go back. Let's go back. Why not? Why not stealing my thunder man ? Sorry. Right , go ahead, Gilbert .

Speaker 4 59:34

Uh , yeah. Um, um , I just wanted to cover like a little bit from the head to me , period, via an important development. So we're not just immediately jumping to the new period . Um , yeah . Uh , the , the Mongos at this time,

Speaker 2 59:52

I knew it. I knew it <laugh> I knew it.

Speaker 4 59:55

Yeah, you're right. So basically in, around the time that the head two meets came to par, this was an important upheaval because, you know, Ganges con like everyone knows Ganges con right. He created this worldwide , uh , empire. He probably largest in the world, you know , uh , maybe the British empire was larger. That was arguably like ever , uh , or the Russian empire, but like , um, uh, Daniel con was like a Mongo con . He created a huge empire. And by , uh, the 1240s , the Mongols basically even conquered the territories in Armenia reaching all the way to, you know, Licia this area. So , uh, obviously , uh , like an important development that ha happened is like the cell jokes , the cell king, the, of Iconium , which was assault it . As I said, like in the heart of Asia minor , it was like a neighbor of LIC arrival . So the CEL Turks, we know that obviously they, you know , conquered in the 11th century, right. Uh , territory of Armenia extended the rule into Asia minor . They became like a neighbor of, you know, kingdom of Armenia, Armenia an arrival. But what happened , uh , guys is by , uh , the , when the Mongols came, they actually fought against the cell ju and they defeated the cell ju and shortly after the cell ju so it of Iconium or room it's called, I icon you because it was based like in Koa , which is an Asia minor . It's like , it was their capital city of the se uh, it, you know, the se after , uh , several defeats at the hands of the Mongos their soon after, not immediately, but soon after 1243, it started their salt started to disintegrate. So here to the first who about when we talked about, he actually saw that the Mongos were without the doubt , a very powerful force , uh , that was quite obvious. Uh , so made the decision to make an Alliance, not against the se , but actually more against the neighboring Muslim states , the south, like the Emirates of <inaudible> the , and you know , these , these territories , uh , and especially the ma looks of Egypt yeah . Who were also arising power at this time. Uh, very deadly power later on also for, for , for a kingdom of Armenia. They were, they were , and others , the mom Lukes were slave warriors. Were they not? Yes. Yeah . Yes. You're right, absolutely. Right. Initially they were like captured slaves. Yes . Basically you can say my , this was like the early Janissary system that later the Ottoman also adopted , uh , it was like a way when they captured slaves of, you know, Christians, Muslim, et cetera , we all race into this like military tradition. And eventually they became the ruling power in Egypt. There were Muslims. Oh , interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know , uh , so, but the Mongos in new , they fought to the nail against these Muslim states. So they were naturally the Mongos being a very powerful empire Armenians allied themselves with the Mongos. So Heto the first Mikey actually initially the first contact were made right after 1243 after, you know , defeat of the Seru by the Mongos and especially 1247 , uh , very powerful military commander, you know, Constable, as we said , uh , Samat was broader of , uh , head the first , he actually ventured to the , uh, 4 47 to the Mongo capital capital of car quo in Mongolia and made , uh , Alliance with the , uh , Mongos formalized, the Alliance. And that , uh , later on, was followed up in , in , in his footsteps, but he first himself, so Heto also in 1244 , I'm sorry, 1254 . He actually went to the Mongo capital of <inaudible> and he sealed an Alliance with the Mongo con an Armeno Mongo Alliance, again, especially, and first and foremost against the , you know, this states, the <inaudible> , the <inaudible> the Maka , this Muslim states. And he made this Elias with Mohan who was the con or Khan of the Mongol empire. And for half a century, that all Elias was very important and in fighting of the , uh , Muslim forces, Malo and their allies , uh, however, unfortunately, Mike , uh, by early 14th century, first of all, the Mongol empire disintegrated into various other like , uh , states Mongol and empires

Speaker 3 1:05:08

Empire . And this was , this was , this is what led to Kiki's eventual

Speaker 4 1:05:12

Fall. No , yes. One of the reasons, one of the reasons, yeah . Yes. One of the important reasons you're absolutely right. And Mon uh , the first of all, the Mongol empire disintegrated into several smaller , uh , empires, the Elcon , the, and ward and other , um , and what happened is the Elcon , which was the closest to citizen Armenia after the disintegration of this vast empire of gang con it adopted Islam. So the , uh , so the rulers of the Elcon , which was the, the empire of the Mongos at joining closest to kingdom of Armenia, it adopted Islam. So their stance quickly changed not as an ally, but more sympathetic with the malos and the others. But I have to say before that there were crucial victories and powerful battles. Obviously there were defeats as well, like sure . For the , what , yeah. In 1266, the Armenian armies , uh , lost to the malos , it was this battle of Marty , but in 1299, the Armenian and the Mongo army scored important victories against the , uh , so there was a of war, but for decades, yeah . Decades. Yeah. Very crucial battles. Uh , but unfortunately they, they played a ultimately negative role , uh , especially after when the Mongos already switched sides, as you can say, they switched sides and join , uh , the Muslims, the incarnate . Yeah . Um , and then , um , you know, that was an important geopolitical , uh , change throughout the region. And also , uh , uh , Mike , uh , another important thing, the Crusader states, one by one fell in the 13 century , uh , acre being the last, you know, CU stronghold fell in 1295 , only Cypress being an island nation remained Lu kingdom of Cypress in remained well into, you know, 15th century because it was E easily defended as an island by the Lucian king . Uh , but other like , uh , Crusader states, they fell and there wasn't as much as interest by the CU by the Western Europeans, by the papacy . We didn't talk as much about the papacy , but I have to, you know, make that point that during this time definitely the lead of the west Western or Western world Western Europe was the pop , right. Because this is the time before the reformation mm-hmm <affirmative> before the secularization of these nation states. So the Pope was the ultimate leader. So all the Armenian Kings, when they were communicate to west European monarchs would usually do it through the papery , through the pulp , through the Vatican, you know , uh, and, you know, for example, like during the coronation of level on the magnificent, the pulp himself sent, you know, his representative, you know, was there in the , so this was very important , the magnific and other Armenian monarchs, they would, you know, communicate with the pole . And there's a lot of like archives, a lot of the , um , uh , letters of our Kings are informatic and archives. Yeah. Uh , like we actually have a very beautiful, like , uh , with a seal of level in the magnific and golden CEO , uh , in the , um , Vatican archives, his letter to , to pop , uh , and you know , uh , also like you should lead into that. Cause we we've basically talked about the fall . Yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah , yeah . Um, so yeah, I mean , um, so that was another thing, like, unfortunately there wasn't as much as interest and , uh, uh, like maybe we should , uh , point out that , uh , there was also a lot of like when there were , uh , communications with the Pope , like OB , uh , papacy , a lot of times they insisted on unification of the Armenian church with , uh , the Catholic church. So they said, we were like sister churches, the Armenian apostolic church mm-hmm <affirmative> right . The Catholic church. Right . You know, the Pope often insisted , insisted that there should be complete unification of the two churches. Uh, but this was a point of contention within , you know, Armenian needs , you know, some favored it , uh , Mike, but a lot of the clergy, different aristocratic housing, they weren't in favor. You know, they said we have our own national church. We should stick with our own national church as you know, Gregory, the illuminator had established in, you know , 3 0 1 . Uh , so , uh , there was like , uh , this , uh , point of contention, but let me tell you a lot of the time the Kings, they actually said, yeah, we have yeah . There were even like , uh , councils, Armenian church councils. Yeah . That favored gentrification and proclaimed that yes, we're United with the Catholic church. Then there were like a , a different council would actually negate that decision. You know, this also created a lot of friction, like , because when push came to SHA with this Muslim powers and Armenia needed help from like the west west , uh , yeah. Uh, the Pope would insist that, you know, until our unification is not finalized, I cannot guarantee any support military financially or otherwise. And unfortu me , this was also one of the reasons Mike, that, you know , uh , that eventually led to the downfall of , so

Speaker 3 1:11:11

It was basically not siding with the , I mean, it's, it seems like it's the same type of politics that's existed for thousands of years. Yeah . You do. As you're told or else we're not gonna , you know, look at , I can't even imagine what type of back stabbings has , has happened. Even through the church, you know , with the Catholic church, I'm gonna , I'm gonna keep my opinions to myself. What

Speaker 4 1:11:33

Interesting is, is also, it also like aggravated a lot of these Muslim powers because like the mom looks , they said, look guys, you like a foothold for base , you know, Christians to , to, to come to our region. So we have to eliminate this kingdom, which is like a foothold for later crusade for a possible hypothetic, new crusade. Yeah . Or like many crusades. Right. So like as long as these Christian state of Armenia continues to exist, you know, it can be impossible. Like, so we didn't get the help that we needed at this time. When, you know, in the 14th century, when , uh , there was a lot of fighting with the mom Lukes because by, by the 14th century, the mom Lukes were the most dominant power , uh , in this region, in the Levant , you know , uh, there was also another like , uh , Turkey principality of car Mons car Mon , or car Mons , uh , which was also like occupied parts of former , um , se so , yeah , that was also a threat, but the mom looks were the stronger part during this time, like in the like , uh , first and second half or 14th century. Uh, but then again, when the bomb looks started their wars , they , they were pretty clear, Mike, they were saying like, look , you , you guys are like a foothold. We have to eliminate. So it , it actually created a lot of , uh , problems of course, for , for us. Cause you know, but you know, our Kings were, but another important thing, like when you look at these Kings, we have to put it in its proper historic and cultural and context. Like a lot of these Kings, they were like oftentimes very devout , you know , uh , Christians. So like when they would take their vows as a king, the right. It was also like a , you know, a spiritual Christian, right. Even like a church right . Of Corona . And then Mike , when a lot of times they would like retire, they would become like monks. They would retire to a monastery and pass it on to like their offspring or a closest relative. They would like retire to a monastery as , as monks or, or for , for the Queens . Uh , they will retire as nuns. Yeah. Servitude

Speaker 2 1:13:47

Servitude at the end of

Speaker 4 1:13:48

The yeah . And they basically in their lives , in this pity , in , you know, meditation. So like we have to realize like this religion played a very crucial role during this time for everyone. Uh, and uh, you know, and Armenian Kings were not an exclusion. So this point of contention of should we keep our religions doctrine, our doctrine is better than the Catholic doctrine is more archaic. It's more apostolic. This was a huge , uh , you know, point of contention. And then unfortunately, politically it was, it , it played a very, also negative , uh , role. And , you know, as I said, like one of the geopolitical reasons , uh , for the downfall of kingdom of Armenia give ,

Speaker 2 1:14:37

Um , before I ask you my next question , um , there is a question from Albert on club else who asks , uh , what is the connection of Soine and , uh, the burial of the horses. Is there a connection of the Mitani ion , uh , uh , is it tic gods ,

Speaker 4 1:14:58

Right? Uh , well, it's, it's kind of off pop cushion , but it's okay. Uh , yeah , I know. Oh yeah . <laugh> um, so like obviously we have many archaic sources that saying like Armenia was the source of horse breeding. So one of the earliest, if not the earliest horse breeding center . So the Mariano were the cavalry of the ancient kingdom of miton . So in the second millennial BC, so that's like thousands of years, even before CEL in Armenia, already arm , you know, in Armenia, we had a very , uh, developed traditional horse breeding of cavalry,

Speaker 2 1:15:36

Just Mount about that . We're almost almost half of the episodes we've covered with about

Speaker 4 1:15:42

Our ability versus to answer . I don't know if that answered the question and is actually Armenian talk . So it was also very important, you know , horse breeding center. It was one of the provinces of Armenia. Yeah . I also in this area,

Speaker 2 1:15:57

Yeah , Albert Albert's question, he mentioned his daughter's name is Sophie . So he was interested about that. Okay . There you go. Albert, hopefully we , he answered or, yeah, we answered your question. Um, my , my next question , uh , is , um, you know, what happened to Levon to fifth after his capture?

Speaker 4 1:16:16

Right, right. So , uh , like , uh , the Luan Kings rule very briefly and , uh , level the fifth was the last Luin came to rule Armenia, not, well, actually I'll , I'll talk about that. Like, you can argue it wasn't the last, but like he rose to the throne in 13 seven , but before , uh , and by this time, why already there were huge attacks by the mom looks , you know , and I mentioned the reason or one of the important reasons, key reasons , uh , on, on Armenia, on kingdom of Armenia. And basically he led this last pitch defense of the capital cease , but it fell. And then he retreated to the castle of Kon , which was in Licia . It wasn't Kon of today in sun , it was named also Kon , but it was a different castle. He retreated . And that was like, you know, he , there was the last stand, but, you know, he was just, you know ,

Speaker 2 1:17:17

Uh , were they, were they overpowered by just too much coming at once? Like, I mean, they're

Speaker 4 1:17:23

Known for being absolutely. I mean, it was like , uh , like the mom looks definitely had the superior forces in numbers in arms, in equipment by this time already. Okay. Because as I said, the kingdom of arm in this constant warfare had weekend , uh , it lost before that it's important ports, which were , uh , like AYA and all the others and not all, but most, which was , which were important , uh , revenue centers for the kingdom last , last them to the mom Luke's uh, and then , uh , you know, it weakened after that. So yes, they were definitely at this time superior force , uh , via , and unfortunately Darmian side constantly asked for reinforcement from, from the papacy from Western European states, but , uh , didn't get it , get them. Uh , and you know, he actually king , he was a king blue , so he also asked officially, but didn't get that help. So he was unfortunately captured , uh, he , but he very gallantly, you know, he said you have to spare the population and all , you know, a surrender. So it was very gall like Elle king, as , as you can say, all of our Kings or most of them were he surrendered , uh , why he was taken captive by the , the capital of chiro in Egypt. And then he was in captivity with the Royal family , uh , until , uh , 1382. So in 1382 , uh , unfortunately,

Speaker 2 1:18:59

Wait , what year was he captured? I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 1:19:05

13 75, 13 70 13, 7, 13 . So he ruled for like a couple of years. He just ruled for a couple of years while , and then he

Speaker 2 1:19:10

Was captured for basically , he was under cap in captivity captivity

Speaker 4 1:19:14

For seven years. He wasn't, he spent like seven years in captivity in Cairo. Okay . Uh , and then before that, there was a like , um , um , a Francisco and , uh , monk by the name of John Darel, who actually even became his personal secretary and friend who visited Cairo in , uh , 1377. And he promised to, he said , you know , on your behalf, I'm gonna , you know , uh , actually call upon the Kings , uh , various European Kings to actually free you. And eventually that, you know, as that call was answered by John of Castile, who was the Castile in king, in modern Spain. So John Castile actually the

Speaker 2 1:19:59

Spanish king , we , we , we spoke about yeah ,

Speaker 4 1:20:02

Yes. He actually paid the ransom. He bailed him out . He paid the ransom for Lev and , uh , Lu . It was a very large ransom. He paid it. And this is what is amazing. Not only he freedom in 1382, he actually said, you know what Lev , and I'm gonna make you Lord of Madrid, which is the present day capital of , uh , Spain. Wow . He made him Lord of Mo Madrid. So like in modern terms, like the mayor of Madrid. Yeah .

Speaker 2 1:20:29

Did they have some kind of a relationship before that ?

Speaker 4 1:20:31

That's a good question . They related , I mean, like, because like all like , uh , all of these, like , uh, families, they were like bloodlines, like , uh , the LUS were very much one of the very much tight houses with different houses throughout Europe. Okay . So they were very much like with the French, with the English, with , with , with the other Monarch. So yes, they were, they were very much , uh , especially with the French and the English. No,

Speaker 2 1:20:57

I mean, that makes sense because I mean, it's just like random, I Lu Dyna . Right . You know , pay him all this Ranon to bring him up .

Speaker 4 1:21:04

There's even a city in , in , in , uh , by the way, there's a city in , uh , France called Luan . It's like , uh , it's like traditional , uh , hometown of the Luine , uh , in , in France. Wait , is it,

Speaker 3 1:21:16

Is it spelled, is it spelled Wawa ? Is that

Speaker 4 1:21:20

It's spelled L U S I G

Speaker 3 1:21:23

N . Then I have a different city. I'm thinking of

Speaker 4 1:21:24

A different city. G is, yeah. It's the G is silent. Uh Micen . It's like the word pan . So the G is silent. It the French. Uh , so yeah, so basically he became the Lord of Madrid. Uh , and after a couple of years, actually, guys, he actually left Spain, left Madrid and moved to , uh , another of his relatives, Charles , uh , sixth of , uh , France mm-hmm <affirmative> king , Charles, the sixth of France who actually gave him like a palace , uh , in Paris as a king. But why did level move to Paris? You might ask, because at this time the , the , the French and English were fighting to under yeah. Yeah. So like when Levon moved there, he said like , uh , look , you know, this is crazy. Like, you know, our lands, holy land, my kingdom, and other like former Crusader states were overrun and occupied and you are fighting each other, you know , like I said, they had a very strong religious convictions, right. So we should launch a new crusade to liberate kingdom of Armenia, to liberate all these Christian lands. Yeah . That are occupied. Now we talked about this instead of you fighting each other. So he actually, guys, he actually went even twice on a diplomatic mission to England, to the court of west minister, to , um , Richard II , as an ambassador of peace saying like, look , and this stupid, you know, a hundred years war let's let's unite. Our forces let's concentrate on, on , on , on the falls have taken over our land in the east, the holy land and other lands . And he visited in 1389 and 1392. He visited the court of Richard II in Westminster. So that was the Royal court of the English Kings. Uh, but unfortunately, as you know, his missions were not successful, you know, the hundred years <affirmative> work continued and the French and the English continued to kill each other. You know, there was no correct

Speaker 2 1:23:42

Me if I'm wrong. I think he also requested help to go back and get like conquer and Cecilia . Right. Yeah. And they just refused.

Speaker 4 1:23:51

Yeah. This is what I'm saying. Like he said, I would actually lead this force. Yeah . You know, we, I would lead this , uh , forced to liberate kingdom of Armenia kingdom or , or other these , uh , former , uh , Christian states. Yeah. Uh , but you know, it , it came to not , and , um, he passed away in , on November 29th, 1393 in Paris. And he was like honorably 11 , the fifth, he was actually honorably buried in the Celestine chapel, which was an important resting place of French Kings in Paris. And then , uh, is ,

Speaker 2 1:24:28

Is the team still there?

Speaker 4 1:24:30

This is very good question. So , uh , uh , via , uh , during the French revolution , uh, the Celestine chapel was destroyed because, you know, the , during the French revolution, the Kings and Queens were viewed in very bad light by the revolutionaries. And they destroyed a lot of these tombs , but what happened is his tomb basically ravaged. Unfortunately, his remains were, we don't know what happened to them. They were taken out of the tomb in the Celestine chapel , uh , but his tombstone and the , uh , like the tombstone with the effigy, with his like carving sculpture on it survived. And later on, it was actually moved to the BA Basilica of San , which is an important , uh , another resting place of French Kings. And now at least his tombstone with his EF is like li lifelike sculpture, which is very beautifully executed guys. It's very well done . Like it's early pro and San mm-hmm <affirmative> , uh , late medieval , uh , carving it still survives. And it's in San . You can actually see how king our last king level on the fifth look like thanks to this effigy, which is in San . So all of you who visit Paris, <laugh> make sure to pay a visit to the San Basilica . And you can see his , um , his tombstone, his effigy , uh , there like his crown with a crown and a sector with the old , old , the garbage , beautiful, beautiful

Speaker 2 1:26:06

Stuff . Wow . Uh , Le um , I wanna talk about, you know, there's, I showed you the trailer of , uh, there's a movie in 2000 thousand 19. I dunno if it was a short film, what they were trying to do, like it was just a trailer. Well, I think it was a short film or whatever it was called Licia , the, the , the line , the king lion king,

Speaker 4 1:26:26

The land of lions,

Speaker 2 1:26:27

The land of lines . Yeah . What was that about? Like, because I mean, the trailer is amazing.

Speaker 4 1:26:32

Yeah. That was like a short film, short movie. Uh , they they're , they're still actually planning to produce like a full feature film. Mm-hmm <affirmative> Uhhuh like a Hollywood production type of film. The amazing thing is why it was made in Armenia. So , uh, I think a AIAN is the director. Yeah . I saw

Speaker 2 1:26:52

That name in the , in

Speaker 4 1:26:53

The, in the credits. Yeah , yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah . So it's like they made a tripartite short film short. So each film, if , uh , I believe is like, well, Toyota , I think is like 15 minutes or something. Okay. I see. Okay . So, but they they're . Yeah. It was like a teaser. More of a teaser of a no , no.

Speaker 2 1:27:13

Yeah . It's a short

Speaker 3 1:27:14

Film. It looked like a pitch deck. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:27:16

You know , I mean, I saw the trailer and then I , I , I read that it's a short film, but I don't know where if it was ever even released or what it was. Uh, I ,

Speaker 4 1:27:25

Yeah , the , the , uh , why the short film was actually released. I actually saw side. It was very well done . Yeah . It was released in Yvan and there was a screening in LA and different , uh , cities as well , uh, in Europe. Uh , I believe if , if I'm not mistaken, do I mean, if

Speaker 2 1:27:42

You're talking about three fifteens, that's a 45 minute, you know, short . Yeah ,

Speaker 4 1:27:46

Yeah , yeah . No, no , no , no , no . I think it's total total . Oh, total

Speaker 2 1:27:50

15 minutes. Okay. Got it . But

Speaker 4 1:27:52

I'm sorry, like they wanna do eventually like three parts in like maybe each like two, three hours, you know, this is , this is their goal. Yeah. Uh , but this one was very short. Uh, and then , uh , but it was very well done . I , I was very impressed to be honest. Yeah . Like the acting , uh , and everything like it was for most part, like they were even actors, not like Armenian, but

Speaker 2 1:28:18

Not

Speaker 3 1:28:18

Too many Armen again, it's a great, it doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be Armenian actors. No , no , not it's a great story period. And it's a very interesting time, especially with the crusades being involved. That's where I was getting at it's story .

Speaker 2 1:28:31

Yeah . That's where I was getting at. I think it, it should come to life, you know, and

Speaker 4 1:28:36

I mean like level , the magnificent was like the close friend of Richard, the Lionheart , he was a close friend of Frederick Barbara Rosa . I mean, these are like huge historic figures and like our level and the magnificent was like, you know , their , their friend confidant. Yeah . You know, so it's like, you know, our part of the story is not told , uh, in , in this like non Armenian unfortunate, like Hollywood films and etc . So we have to definitely like the films is a very important way to tell the historic, Armenian, historic narrative to the , uh , to the world, you know , at large, I , I just cannot emphasize it enough. Yeah . So I totally agree with you guys, like, you know, we have to get our food into this, you know, especially like, you know , obviously the Hollywood industry is very of important

Speaker 3 1:29:25

Of course. I mean, it's, you know, well , who was it that said it in , uh , last, was it the last episode? Was it Vahan said, you know, it's through art or was it ye so through art, it's really important to tell our story artists and you know, it, doesn't not necessarily just artists , any type of art form film, any type of art form. Yeah . It

Speaker 4 1:29:46

Doesn't make a difference. But film , I think is one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful

Speaker 2 1:29:51

One VI visually , you know , um , um, let's see how many more questions we got? Uh ,

Speaker 3 1:29:58

No , we got , we've got two more questions. Yeah . But I mean, I guess we can kind of tie it together, you know? Um, well here, I'm just gonna ask. And then , so after, after Lev the fifth , um, and what happened with him , uh , who were the Kings and Queens that basically took over GU the kingdom of Marvin and GU after the Luin , uh , kingdom of Cyprus or a fall of the Luin kingdom of Cyprus. Right.

Speaker 4 1:30:27

That's a great question. Uh , Mike , uh, like oftentimes we think that, you know, with, with , uh , level fifth ending his role in 1375, that's the end of the kingdom of Armenia mm-hmm <affirmative> , that's not true. That's not true. Let me, let me say why it's actually in the mountainous area of Licia , the Armenian local rulers actually retained control in the tourist mountains because these man looked forces, obviously they couldn't able to penetrate these areas. And yeah. And in the coastline, in the coastline of like, there was an important castle of cortico cortico, which is on the Mediterranean coastline , this castle was also retained by the Lu Kings of Cypress. So after Lev on the fifth, basically , um, two things happened, the , uh , branch of Armenian, no , uh , head to meet family, the house of ne ne actually crown several Kings in mountain, CIA in the tourist mountainous area , tourist mountains area. And they ruled until 1424. These, these Kings lo uh , locally in this area, in this pocket of mountain Licia of the house of nare , which an offshoot of the head at the same time , uh , Mike also the Lu retained control of the former kingdom of Armenia until the coastline , the coastline, they retained it until Oracles and I joining area on the Mediterranean coastline until 14, 8, 14 48 . That's like what, like 70 years after end of rain of level on the fifth, right? So it was the car money that car of like, remember a Turkey kingdom that actually eventually was able in 1448 to take over this area, cortico and I joining area. And you can say effecti , this is when , uh , defacto defacto , uh , end of Armenia kingdom of Armenia came about. However, the day you read title, teach her , uh , title of kingdom of Armenia was still held by the Lu young Kings, right? I mean, obviously they were the natural heirs, so they was passed to first of all , uh , uh , Peter, the first Cypress Lu young king and all the succeeding , uh , Kings that came after him. Uh, so after , uh , that , uh , after the fall of the Lu kingdom of in nine in turn , the title was passed to the , of , which was basically again, natural to the house of Lu , which is again, a very important and powerful , uh , European , uh , uh , Royal house, the house of Sao , uh , and what is amazing guys that , um , even the Italian , uh , like in Italy, Italian Kings were from the house of Sao and , uh , they continued to carry the title of , uh, Kings and Queens of Armenia. So can you imagine like the king of Italy until 1946 , he was the reigning king and in the 20th century, he actually carried that title of yes. And today Mike , even today, like , um , uh, various , uh, you know, there , uh , offspring of king of Italy, the house of Sao , the Italian SAIS , there's still the rightful heirs of the Kings and Queens of Armenia. And they actually carry the title , uh, Victoria, Manuel prince of Naples mm-hmm <affirmative> and Manuel FETO prince of Venice. They are, if, if, let's say hypothetically, if the kingdom of Armenia would be restored and it becomes a monarchy instead of the Republic that we have now. Yeah . They would be the Kings, they would , they're the rightful errors through their , you know, lineage for the Kings and Queens of Armenia. Can

Speaker 2 1:34:55

You imagine that that's crazy.

Speaker 3 1:34:57

That's actually really fascinating.

Speaker 2 1:35:00

Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:35:02

So ,

Speaker 2 1:35:03

Well, I mean, after all this, that you've, I mean, you know, talked about and kind of told I is almost like a beautiful story, listening together. Talk about this . I'm

Speaker 3 1:35:13

Still stuck on, I'm still stuck on the fact that we had Armenian nights . Yeah . But I can pick your brain about that some other time.

Speaker 2 1:35:19

So, you know, what became of the, like the history of Licia after the 15th century. Right. Right . And that would be my last question. So <laugh> <laugh>

Speaker 4 1:35:32

Um , so , um, yeah, so in the 16th century, by the 16th century , uh , via the Ottoman empire was rapidly. As we know, expanding earlier , as we know, in 1453 , it took over constant depo and the Byzantine empire. And by the 16th century, it also took over Licia, the area of Licia, formerly kingdom of Armenia. And, but , um, Armenians still for most part retain their semi autonomous rule again in this impregnable mountainous area mountain, a CIA . So even AOUS took over in cities like , uh , Licia mountain ofay tune , uh , ho in these cities , cities like that , uh , in this mountainous area, Armenians retained their local rule semi autonomous rule. Uh , they would maybe at times just pay a tax to the Salton , but they were, you know, left alone. They were, you know, governed themselves. They even had their own armed forces, their own sort of , uh, thing . And it's interesting that it was Zay tune was the place in mountain Licia that had a local Lords Armenian Lords and Armenian local , uh , even, you know, defense forces , uh , armed formations that when the Turks , uh , the Ottoman Turks tried to impose harsher measures against the Zay two Armenians Armenians of Zay two , they actually ha you know, Reed and in 1862 was a very famous Zay , two resistance, which is consider to usher in the Armenian national liberation struggle of the 19th century. So it's quite interesting that, you know, even the semi autonomous rule in this area, can you see how much it's connected to the last vestiges of Armenian state of Armenian independence and also served as a spark for the new national liberation movement of the 19th century, which Zune was yeah . Beginning in 1862 . Uh , so it played a very important role and , um , you know, it remained so until 20th century. And then as you know, in the 20th century , uh, what is interesting CDC? I was still majority Armenians Armen. So the Armenians, yeah. Armenians constituted the largest , uh, uh , you know, people in this area. It was, you know , there were Turks living side by side , other nationalities, Kurds , et cetera . We Armenians were still the most numerous in Licia . Um , and , um, you know , um, that's why the Turks in 1909, they actually attacked, especially the city of Ana , which was very popular Licia Armenian city, 1909. They, the young Turks massacre, some 40,000 Armenians in Ana , the city Armen city of Ana , which actually was an attempt to sort of like, you know , uh , again, drop the Armenian population just basically by killing off the Armenians. And as we know, before that in 18 94, 96, there were already a median massacres, you know , uh, and of course, you know, with the combination with the Armenian genocide, and again, what is interesting during this time CLIC and Armenia would to play a key role in, you know, Armenian defense in defending , uh , the, what was, you know, during the genocide left of the Armenian people we know of this hero , MUA resistance, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah . The 40 days of MUA layer or MUA as later on this famous writer , France would write . So some few thousand Armenians they resisted and , uh , you know , uh, actually roll up and then basically, you know, in mu uh , yeah , far off this invading Ottoman genocidal forces and succeeded, you know, they raise this huge a banner with a , like a white banner with a red cross and , uh , French steamship, military passing by in the golf , in the Armenian Gulf or Armenian Gulf of Alexandre passing through there. Uh, he , they actually saw it, this, this banner, and they came to the rescue eventually after, you know, some days of resistance , uh , they actually rescued the MUEs that actually resisted the Turk ons , ocelot , genocidal ons , ocelot. So as you can see, it's , uh , you know, played virals, unfortunately, you know, after world war one , some cities in Armenians again, returned to, to Licia . And they believed that, you know, after world war one , the Turks were defeated and them being the perpetrators of the genocide, they would be actually punished and our roles would be over. But, you know, that was like a false Dawn , unfortunately. Yeah . Even what is interesting you , uh , uh , Mike and the pure peace conference , uh , when the allies, especially the British and the Americans, they said like Armenia should unite parts of , uh, you know, Licia , Armenia and Armenia minor should also be part of this Armenian Homeland it's without doubt also Armenia. Definitely. And , uh, there , there was to be , uh , the British and the Americans at the Paris peace conference in 1919, they proposed this Armenia, a vast Armenia state encompassing parts of Licia , Armenia, and parts of lesser Armenia. So Armenia extending from the black to the ter CS mm-hmm <affirmative> that would have access to the black and Mediterranean CS. Uh , that was the , that was the proposal by the , all by the , by the , by the British. Yeah. Uh , and the Americans, especially Americans, president Woodrow, Wilson was of it

Speaker 2 1:42:00

Funny gaan type falls in that region, right? Yeah . Uh , yes . Yeah. So, I mean, who knows because my, both my parents' side are from gaan type and I would've probably still been there if that was the case.

Speaker 4 1:42:15

I mean , actually my, my ancestors, a vibe for my dad sides are also from ontop yeah . From mine , top the area, so yeah . Yeah . It's like, yeah. <laugh> so it's quite interesting. Uh , but you are absolutely right. We actually, in 19 20 21, speaking of ontop , there was a huge resistance and a battle of ontop against encroach. Turks came hers who, you know, they were obviously not happy. They didn't want to see Licia a part of Armenia. So they attacked as early as , uh , February, 1920. That was one of the first actually attacks by the chemists against Armenia. You know, it was in this area, they slaughtered tens of thousands, again, four in places like Marash , they slaughtered the Armenians there, they attacked on top . But , uh, unfortunately for them, they weren't able to slaughter the on top Armenians cuz they resisted so well for more than a year. They totally threw off the , uh , attacks of the TURs, you know , uh , but again, the odds were overwhelming and unfortunately, you know, you know , I don't wanna jump too much into that, but the allies had to be more firm, but they kind of a little bit, unfortunately flip plop . And then, you know, this area, which allies said definitely would be part of the Armenian Homeland eventually with this chemist , uh , with the support of the and , um , others , uh , and unfortunately all allies, which was very detrimental to their own, you know, interest in the long term . I , I would argue , uh, you know, we had to the Armenians again for had to abandon Licia and last Armenians in this area abandoned that , uh , in 1922, but another pocket of VA that was the LA last pocket of Armenians remained in around Musa . So this area would still French control. It was part of the French controlled Syria mandate this Armenian golf area around mu there . Yeah . And a lot of Armenians still lived here as late as 1939. But unfortunately again, this area in 1939, which was not part of Kmar Turkey was illegally handed over to the Turks and the last remaining Armenians, they had to again, leave the, this area and they, you know, left for , uh, Syria and Lebanon. Yeah . So like a lot of the Achar Armenians, for example, they left this area and established the village of Achar, which is in Lebanon. Uh , there there's only one village that in 1939, decided not to leave. It's completely Armenian Christian Armenian village called VA . It's still there.

Speaker 2 1:45:10

That's yeah . My parents have been there. Actually my parents, they went to , they went to, they just , I mean , years back, they did a whole trip through Western Armenia and they went to that town and they have video. I have videos of them , uh , actually with the Armenians that live there, singing, dancing. Um , that's cool . Yeah . And my mom actually found someone who has a last name that connected her. I , I don't remember, but yeah, I , I know about that. You know, there's a, of , uh , lot of Armenians in, in , in Turkey that, that don't even mean

Speaker 4 1:45:44

A lot of Armenians, but this is like the only Christian Christian village Christian. There are a lot of like crypto Muslim , uh , villages and population is huge, like a millions, but this is like, since they go by like the, you know, religious connotation, so they, the only Armenian village, but it's not you're right. And , and just the last point, like there's a surviving also vestige of our ancient kingdom, last kingdom in the form of the Catto Coade of Licia , which after the genocide relocated from sea Tolia in Lebanon. So it's called the KACO of the great house of Licia and we have Kaos R on the first, you know? Yeah . You can see that's the last vest and the last piece of , uh , Licia that we have today. Wow .

Speaker 2 1:46:32

Surviving. That's amazing. That's amazing. It's a great story. It is, it is a tragic ends, but this is the way of the world works right. With, with everything. Everything that must go up must come down, I guess. But , well, you never know. There's always hope one day. Well, again, you know , it's just still a great piece history . That's , that's, that's one of the reasons that we can't stop, you know, fighting for, for, you know , no , our lands , uh ,

Speaker 4 1:46:59

For our, for our rights, I would say for our rights or for the truth , uh , why , you know , for our , the truth ,

Speaker 2 1:47:05

The truth will eventually hopefully bring those lands back, you know, because how long, I mean, I don't wanna get political, but yeah . You know , uh , this can't go on forever, you know? Um , but , um, Gabo , this was so , uh , enlightening and thank you for always, this is, you know, the second , my pleasure and honor

Speaker 4 1:47:26

As always, you know , but thank you for doing this and thank you for the opportunity. Like I , no problem . Last time, like, you know, you're doing amazing job. I hope this turns into like a worldwide movement, you know, of knowing ourselves you're and you know, not only Armenians, non Armenians as well, you know, our brothers and sisters, you know , we , we have some in our history , you know, first and foremost, our own people who are often ignorant of their own history and culture. So you guys are doing an amazing, amazing job of , you know, enlightment thank you.

Speaker 3 1:47:58

Well, well , we have, we have people like you who are, you know, you know, we have your information and many, many others such as yourself , um, who provide so much amazing material for us to be able to pick from and look into. Cause it sparks our Q curiosity, you know , of course, to look into these topics. I mean, you, you take it to another level. Yeah . You can only do so much. So we're humbled.

Speaker 2 1:48:24

Yeah. <laugh> um , I mean, you know, G signed a 99 year contract with us, did he really did ? He's gonna , yeah .

Speaker 3 1:48:33

When are we celebrating bud? When are we ,

Speaker 2 1:48:37

Um, but uh , thank you for being on our first live show. Uh, unfortunately we're competing as the Dodgers <laugh> it looks like , uh , but , um, thank you for everybody who joined us , uh, G again , um , you know, I know we have so much to cover with you. I know we're gonna go to an, so we're going , uh , cover Lev , you know, the magnificent, his entire , um, you know, it's very difficult to cover, you know, 200, 300 years in, in an hour or two hours. So yeah . Uh , we definitely are gonna dissect absolutely . Uh you're right . The , the kingdom of Licia, and there's so much more about it that we wanna talk about specific events that took place. Um, so , uh , give again, thank you so much. Yeah . And , uh, we will, it's always a pleasure. Yeah. And any last , uh , you know, mentions you wanna say or anything, no ,

Speaker 4 1:49:35

Again, keep up the great work I'm here for you guys. Always again, thank you so much, you know, and you know, hopefully this, this will, you know, this will be the spark, you know , uh , that will ignite this interest in , in our people worldwide. So thank you again for doing these amazing, amazing programs. Just thank you.

Speaker 3 1:49:54

Thank you . I honor. And

Speaker 2 1:49:55

Pleasure, and I appreciate you waking up early to be with us . I know you still gotta go to work, so thank you again. And we we'll talk to you shortly. Yeah . Okay . All right . Thanks . Okay . Thank you. Okay . Thank you . Have a good day. All right . Well, that was interesting. And , uh, man, I , I love talking to this man. It's it's it's it's

Speaker 3 1:50:16

It's next time. Next time we should get him on when it's cold or

Speaker 2 1:50:20

<laugh> gosh , Auto . Well, I can't wait until he comes to the us back to the us . So can , or

Speaker 3 1:50:27

Why don't we go over there?

Speaker 2 1:50:29

I , I can take this with me. Let's I can take this let's as long as there's internet, we can do this from anywhere there's mics , everything . We can definitely take it internet . Um, well , uh , again, everybody's watching us. Thank you so much. We appreciate this. It's our first live show. Uh , I think we did good, you know , um, uh , few mentions, you know , uh , you saw in the bottom, we had our sculptures, they are for sale. Um, the book visit us@medosnet.com , uh , to get the sculptures t-shirts this t-shirt that I'm wearing. We have also digged on the great , uh , if you like our show, you want to support us, please. Uh , you can go to , uh , Paton com at Medo net , and I'm gonna show that right here in the bottom. There you go. See how cool this is. Um , you can go ahead and , uh, um, you know, become a , a Patreon. We have three tiers, like it starts with $5. It's just to support the show, but , uh , you know, we already have , thank you , you, for those who have already started to support the show. Yeah . Um, is that what else? Um, um, I can make a quick mention about sports. No, no, don't no, don't no , Nope , Nope . We're not doing that. Um, so again, thanks. Uh, I don't know until the next episode, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Until next week until next week. All right . Everybody take care. Have a great night. We'll see you guys next week. Thank you.

Speaker 1 1:52:33

So the .