Speaker 1 1:55

[inaudible]

Speaker 2 1:55

Hello everyone. And welcome to [inaudible] podcast. Episode four on your host of eco slanging , and as always I'm joined by my cohost Mike volume . Hello, everyone died deep . Thanks for cutting me off. Like I have some fun on the show where we dive deep into our great army and history and discuss different era's kingdoms topics and great people. How are you doing today? Fantastic. Have you had your coffee? It's Saturday? Yeah, I might need some more. Uh , well, we have another great show today where we will be talking about Armenian architecture and arts in the middle ages and medieval times we have the pleasure of Dr. Christine [inaudible] , who has joined us via zoom to talk about these topics and help us learn more. Um, thank you for being part of this show. Uh , how are you doing today?

Speaker 3 2:44

Great . Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here and honored to be on the show. Well,

Speaker 2 2:52

Thank you. We appreciate it. Uh, you know, we want , uh, people like yourself , uh, educators to , you know , uh , uh, the goal of the show is to spread education and learn about our history and all different forms of history, not just, you know , uh , kingdoms this , but especially arts and architecture is so important. It's, it's part of who we are as people, you know, now those of you who don't know Dr. Christina Meranti is an Armenian American researcher writer, a translator historian, and a professor at Tufts university in Medford, Massachusetts. Uh, she is also the author of the art of Armenia and introduction and , uh, Armenia art, religion, and trade in the middle ages , uh, which you can and should order on Amazon. Um, Dr. Meranti , uh , can you tell us a bit more about yourself and your background for our audience to learn about you?

Speaker 3 3:46

Thank you so much, Vic . Um , I'm glad you said I was Armenian American. It is a misconception. I sometimes hear that I'm Italian and, you know, a love to the Italians in Italy, but I'm actually not. And my name sounded, she really actually, I think there is, there are Italians with that name, but that is not me. So my name [inaudible] is a , is a shortened version of modern John . And , um, it is shortened because of the Turkish name, changed laws of the, you know, the early 1920s , um, where my father's family grew up and where they , um, they had a leather tanning factory. Um, so yeah, so that's, that's my background. I'm , um, both sides Armenian and , uh, you know, all that bull's-eye on my father's side, but originally from 60 Abbas at Pasea and then on my mother's side from Arizona room and shoving Carissa . So, you know, that's my story. I, my grandparents were genocide survivors and that's part of who I am. And , um , so I am both a scholar, but I'm also a member of the Armenian community and , uh , and going through the war now as everybody else's. Yeah. So

Speaker 2 5:04

It's funny you say that last episode. I think I went, I pronounced it like Italian. I went to [inaudible] You might have Italian background or something. I was like , all right, well, let's see when we meet her,

Speaker 3 5:20

That's pulling it . I feel like I kind of am Italian. I would say I'm Italian . Like sometimes I'll just say, okay, I have an alter ego , that's Italian, and I'll just start pretending I'm Italian and I'll speak Italian and I'll just be Italian, but I'm not, I

Speaker 4 5:31

Mean, we all have the benefit of having that I, or Y yeah, right .

Speaker 2 5:39

Okay . My letter changes, you know, my, my last name is [inaudible] , but originally was out of Slovenia . There was an R audits and they moved up are to sound more Turk Oslan , you know, the , you know , it's funny, my grandma used to call me Ozlem Bala , which means Aslan is line , you know? So , um, but yeah, I mean , I think there's so many stories like that of people had to change their last name or the letters around, but , um, I may ask you a kind of follow-up question to that was what made you decide , uh , that this is a direction you wanted to go as far as like learning or being history of the arts and architecture, and eventually leading to you teaching about Tufts university.

Speaker 3 6:26

Definitely. You know, thank you for that. It was a very circuitous route. I loved art as a kid and , uh, you know, I, where I grew up. So first of all, I loved art and I was Armenian. I am Armenian, but I didn't put the two together. Um, I still have on me , I'm not Italian. Um, I didn't put the two together. Um, I just loved drawing and stuff, but also because, you know, I think in most American , um, you know, sort of public school curricular , you don't get history of art. It's not a subject that's taught. Um, and so I didn't even realize you could, you could do that. And I , I have a kind of brand , um, I'm not good with abstraction. I like to, you know, if I'm learning history, I'm not good with dates. I really want to see, I want to see pictures and I want to see material, you know, I want to have that kind of close, real interaction with something. And then the history comes alive to me or the politics or the religion or whatever it might be. So when I took my first, I took an art appreciation class in this community college in Connecticut. Um, and I, it just, I just fell in love and it was not, it was Italian art actually getting back to Italy, but it just, the way that art history was able to capture so many of the realities of the past in a way that was totally different from history books, you know, the way you usually told a parade of, of events from this to that, and this word of that wore it . So anyway, I saw , I started by really started at , um, Armenian art, not from the point of view of Armenia, but from the history of art. And, and so I, when I went, I transferred and I went to Vassar college and I, you know, I studied medieval art of Western Europe, Gothic and Romanesque architecture. Um, and then slowly, you know, I met some wonderful scholars like Nina Garcia , lion , and Thomas Matthews, you know, specialists in Armenian, medieval art and history. And then I found myself kind of angling more east and , um, studying Byzantine art and then, and then resting in the Armenia and the sphere of Armenia. But it was very much sort of starting from the discipline of art history. Um, but coming to it, you know, from my own, you know, my own background being Armenian , um, yeah, the two kind of came together, I would say, in , in college and in grad school. Um, and you know, I really am so glad I had that careful art history training, learning how to just study images, not just appreciate , um, but to study them rigorously or what we can learn about the past. So that, that those things kind of came together. It certainly wasn't as if I started out, you know, knowing this is what I wanted to do , um, at all. Wow.

Speaker 4 9:14

It's interesting how it kind of took a life of its own.

Speaker 3 9:16

Yeah, absolutely. And it still does, you know, I still, I , but I'm so glad that, you know, let me say too, that it wasn't always easy because frankly , um, I would say, you know, when I was in grad school, everyone said , oh, don't study Armenian art . You're never going to get a job. You know, my you'll get a job if you study Italian Renaissance art or modern art or Gothic cathedrals, but it's Armenian art. There's just no jobs out there. But you know, what happened with the field is that people started realizing there's more to art history than just Italian art. We keep talking about Italy, but there's more , more to it than that. And that there are all these other cultures that aren't studied or thought about as much. So as art history changed. So my opportunities grew to be able to, you know, so I got, my first job was teaching medieval, but I was able to not just do Western medieval, but I could do Byzantine. I could do as L'Amic . And I even got to do Armenian art then, you know, fast forward to 2008, I got this wonderful endowed chair and to teach Armenian art at Tufts. But none of that would have happened if I listened to people who said, oh, don't do Armenian because you're never going to get a job. Right. That's you know, what made

Speaker 2 10:28

Tufts to actually offer a course like that? What was , was there?

Speaker 3 10:32

Yeah. Yeah . Great question. I mean, so the , the reason that they, they even have it is because the , the course, but also the endowed chair is because of the good offices of , uh , an Armenian , um, Lucy Derman Wesleyan who is , uh, alive and well and retired, but she is, was an amazing person who actually thought of the idea for the position, which is an endowed chair. She raised the money and she was the first occupant. And so it's the Arthur H [inaudible] professor of Armenian art at ups university, but she, she did it all. She hustled her way to , to create this position, which , um, and it's the only art in doubt , Armenian art chair and outside of the Republic. Uh, so it's very special, but I owe that absolutely to her and to the, to the fundraising she did, and to all the sponsors, you know, it's one of those wonderful stories where Armenian immigrants come to this country and realize they want to , to do something, to perpetuate the culture and to create an atmosphere where people learn. And we see that in these endowed chairs across the country. So it was, and that was a wonderful thing that that was done. Yeah . Really smart. Yeah . Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 11:48

And now was , is the class , uh , is it mostly army wasn't , should I say otitis Armenians? Like how big is the clauses , their interests , people drawn

Speaker 3 11:56

To it. So that's , uh , that's so interesting that you should ask because in fact, so when I started , um, so I teach her, I'm also department chair, I should say. So I don't teach , um, full load, but I teach my Armenian art introduction to Armenian art every fall. And that number has grown to 121 students, which is a lot for Tufts. Um, and most of them are not Armenian . So yeah. So a lot of, a lot of people who are just interested in the subject, I think again, it's because there's this curiosity of , uh , art, art outside of the usual, you know, sort of European sphere. Um, nobody's heard of it. And they're curious, and also again, I think now with the war, it's more in the headlines and that that's sort of another way that , um, and then I think a lot, not, it matters how you teach a subject. So I like to make it really engaging. I bring up all kinds of pop culture references. We talk about, you know, we, so, so I want to make the subject as inviting and welcoming as I can at the same time. You know, I often say that Armenian art teaches itself, all you have to do is show these amazing things that know if you , you know, you've seen this reaction of like, not people who aren't Armenian or don't know about the culture, they're just amazed, this stuff is so it's so beautiful. And it's so rich that it's like, it really sells itself if I can put it that way. So , um , yeah, so I have 120 students entering this fall and , um , I'm really, I'm excited. And, you know, at this point I would say a small fraction Armenian or half or a quarter now we're seeing more of that. Um, but many, many are not and are just interested.

Speaker 4 13:40

Yeah. That's good . Amazing .

Speaker 2 13:43

Um, well , uh, as, as we're going to dive into our topics , um, the first question I wanted to ask you is , um, uh , you know, since we started to show this podcast, Mike and I have , um, spent, you know, we spend a lot of time before every episode , uh, doing research and trying to learn as much as possible to put out the right information during our episodes. Um, you being a researcher yourself, how difficult has it been to find information from ancient artwork?

Speaker 3 14:15

Uh , you know, what so much has to do with kind of developing a nose for it. And , um, when you start, you feel like, and I often tell this to my students, when you start, you feel like, oh, there's nothing to say. And then, but the more you do it, the more you realize the ways the ways to learn. So I pay really close attention to inscriptions because I know on buildings, because I know those inscriptions can tell me about people and about concepts and about theology and about political realities and about the landscape and about just whole mental, whole mental landscapes. And so, but that's something you develop over time, I would say. And it's, but you, you do kind of, you start and you start to also now, I mean, I'm old and I've been doing this a long time, but you start to realize how, how much they're the older I get, the more I realize how much we can learn. And it's much more than I ever thought. It's just a question of sharpening your tools. Um, and so, I mean, for example, I've written a lot about something that like, what could you possibly as sundial? So Armenian sundials, these are, you know, essentially , um, you know, instruments engraved on the walls of Armenian churches on the south facades . You see them go to any Armenian church almost and look , uh , uh , in, in the re you know , historical Armenia and you see a sundial on the Southwest side. And so, you know, that's really interesting. So what can it tell us? It tells us about the history of science. It tells us about astronomy, but it also tells us about, you know, how people saw the world, how they measured their days , you know, and, and also the relations between the time and things like hourly prayers, which is those, those sundials were , were kind of indicating , um, there's so there's so many interesting ways of approaching what might seem like very sort of matter of fact phenomena. And so that's something that, you know, I learn more about every day as I do this work, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, there's so much, and the beautiful thing is that with Armenia and materials, there is so much, we have close to 40,000 manuscripts, each one written by an individual or individuals who had their own thoughts and ideas and perspectives and recorded those things in the manuscript , same for the buildings , um, that impulse to inscribe and to record can be found on the very earliest, you know , um, objects and , uh, and, and buildings that I study. Well,

Speaker 2 16:49

We've learned going back to the, you know, all the way to the

Speaker 4 16:54

Third century, even when, as far back as up the third millennia. Yeah. BC,

Speaker 2 16:59

The Q and a forum . Yeah. It's , it's amazing. Uh, but as far as when we talk about inscriptions and is it, my question was more, do you hit almost like roadblocks when you're trying to find this information, how hard or difficult is it to get access? Like ,

Speaker 3 17:15

I mean , logistically and stuff. Yeah . Not, it's not, not hard at all. Um, you know, in part , and I say that right now, it's a pandemic. And in fact, a lot of the libraries that I would normally use are closed , but, you know, no, there's so much that's been published. So one of the wonderful things about the impulse to record and stuff that you see in the medieval Armenian world is that it continues in the modern world. So you think about like 19th century Armenian scholars in Venice or bullies who are creating journals in which they're recording the presence of churches and recording inscriptions on those churches and they're publishing it and now those journals are online. You can find them, all you need to do is plug in the ear and you're there. So, no, there's, it's not hard. I, you know, I think though you need to sort of know where to look, but there's so much online. And I have to say the national library of Armenia has done amazing things, making so much available. We have all the Soviet scholarships, so much of that as standard online. Um, so no, it's all in Armenian . Yeah . So you need to be able to do that, you know, the army to work. Um, but it is there so that, you know, if you're interested in , you have army , it's a reason to learn Armenian too , frankly, because if it, if you can, it opens up just huge horizons. Um, I think the hardest thing for me, and this may be sort of maybe what you were thinking about too , as you know, to do the field work on Armenian monuments, that can be hard depending on where it is you work. And so, yeah, so I mean on Moran , which is in the Turkish Republic , uh , modern day Turkish Republic , uh, in the military zone, that's that wasn't easy. So that's hard doing, trying to do field work on sites that are , um, forbidden or , um, difficult to access that's for me, that's the hard part, but it's , um, you know,

Speaker 2 19:17

That's a fact of life , um, that the oldest information that's out there, that's an Armenian that I always say , um , you know, all the episodes I've mentioned, I feel like these, that in army, of course, for us, it's good to learn Armenian and try to read and do your research, but I think these also need to be translated. So, so the rest of the world , you know, English being obviously the dominant language , um, to, to learn, I think that's, what's lacking from, from the Armenian side, we need to do this.

Speaker 3 19:47

So have a translation project, I think that's right. BIC . I think it would be, you know, you're right. I mean, not, everybody's going to have the motivation to, to learn Armenian. And, you know, I think we see, for example, with the arts off , you know, situation where if the, if the evidence and the documentation were more readily available in English and, you know, have it be very good, you know, like authoritative scholarly in English that would, that would really have helped or help. Um, it is a roadblock, but , uh , yeah, that's not something I really had thought about much. Cause I just think , you know, because I know Armenia , but yeah, you're right. It would make it more available. And , and, and for me as a scholar would make it easier to teach sometimes when I have grad students who, you know, are going to have to get through a long colophon of a manuscript, so a long scribal note or, or , or an inscription. Um, and that's,

Speaker 2 20:50

Yeah. I mean, that's one of the reasons why we do this show in English. I mean, we can do it in Armenian and, you know , obviously we will have more access to , uh, professors and, and, and you know that from Armenia specially or it , but our goal is, you know, English to be able to not only reach our generation, that's growing up here in the us or other countries, countries that don't speak English is for non-Armenians to learn about this. And then you'd be surprised in , I mean, in these, well, this is the fourth episode in three episodes are following , uh, with non-Armenians has grown , uh , like I can't, which is , I mean, I don't want to , I

Speaker 4 21:29

Don't want to personally say it's a shock, but it kind of is whenever I've had some of my friends from abroad, non-Armenian friends from abroad, let's say throughout Europe, Australia, even, you know , contact us and say, Hey, we're listening to your stuff. This is amazing.

Speaker 3 21:43

Isn't that great? Yeah, it really is cool.

Speaker 4 21:45

But I mean, the main goal about the English, especially in this country and me and Vic have talked about this quite often prior to even doing of this stuff was, you know , um, there's a lot of people, especially the younger generation here that seems to have kind of fallen out of touch with our history. I'm sure you've probably come across this on the east coast. Yeah. I mean, we haven't, it's, it's, it's rampant here. Um, I mean, we have a massive population of Armenians, so, you know , um, it's the best way to reach out to everybody.

Speaker 3 22:18

I think that's wonderful. I, you know, the way you're putting it. Yeah. I mean, even in my own family, I'm not going to name any names, but , um, you know, not everybody is like studying this stuff. And I would say, you know, for me, I come to the, to the problem of educating. Um, non-Armenians largely through the art, you know, that is an incredible way. I often say this, like, it's a way it's a way to introduce people who, who don't know the language, some something. So essentially something that so Armenian , um , you know, again, you show the churches, you show the manuscripts and , and my hope is always that some of my students will go on and learn and study and they do, you know, and I'm really happy to see that, but I think the art is a wonderful way to do what you all are doing, you know, with your, with your show in English, it's a way of kind of giving that immediate access to, to a whole world. And so I think that's born out to , by something like the met show, which was incredibly popular with, with all kinds of groups and communities , um, in part, because it was, it was right there, it was easily, easily accessible. You've see that you see the faces, you see the buildings, you see that landscape, you don't need to know Armenian to feel those

Speaker 4 23:33

Things well. Okay. So that'll lead me to my question. Um, we know throughout our history, we were excellent at metallurgy stonework woodwork . Um, I wanted to know what type of influences, if there were any or where we innovators in, what we do during, during there were , are doing times and moving forward into the middle ages, I'm sure there's plenty of influences, you know, from early on through the Egyptians, the Sumerians, and eventually with some of the Islamic takeovers in the middle ages. And some of those influences, if you want to maybe shed some light on that topic. Yeah.

Speaker 3 24:09

I mean, this is so, so the, so particularly the pre-Christian period, which is what you're talking about from , um, you know, all the way from which is so rich in historical Armenia. Um, let me just preface that by saying that , um, I think that the pre-Christian it study of pre-Christian Armenian territories is incredibly complex in ways that the Christian period is not because , um, we, we don't, we don't have, of course the Armenian alphabet, that's one thing. But the other thing is that the , the scholarship that is produced on this is extremely technical, and I can tell you , and so you have on the one part, this really technical anthropological and archeological scholarship, you know, archeologists talking to archeologists, and then you have really interested amateurs who are great and do wonderful things and put websites up. And so you have that, but you don't have a kind of, for the, for the, you know, average person who wants to learn, you know, and get an authoritative voice on pre-Christian Armenia. There isn't a whole lot of kind of easily digestible authoritative work out there in my view. And I say this in part, because in writing my book, the art of Armenia, the first chapter is on ancient the ancient world. And I was really, it was the hardest chapter of all to write because there simply wasn't that kind of general access information that was, you know, that was documented with footnotes and connected to, you know , archeological sites that, all that good stuff, you know , um, with carbon dating and all that, all that wonderful scientific , um, investigative , uh , tools. So , um, so already, I'll just say that, but it's hard to study it, but at the same time , um, that that material is incredibly old and it's incredibly rich. And the excavations that are, that have been happening and are happening in the Republic and bronze age sites, for example, and earlier are showing amazing things, what it shows to me. And again, pre-Christian Armenia can touch some hot buttons for various people about, you know, where they think their culture is coming

Speaker 4 26:28

From. Yeah , yeah. She listened to our previous apps . Yeah.

Speaker 3 26:34

Right. So, but for me, what's so interesting and I speak here, not as a specialist in ancient art, I'm a medievalist, but for me, what's so interesting is how are the material culture of pre-Christian Armenia is both clearly connected to neighboring cultures. I think of a Syria very obviously, but also then the Persian world , um , connected to, but also distinct from, so it's both, and not only that ancient Armenia in ways that you don't see elsewhere actually demonstrates multiple different cultures converging and , and kind of doing things in Armenia. So for example, in ancient Armenia, we see Hellenistic style, you know, statues alongside Persian, eight style, you know, objects, you see those two , you know, it's, it shows very clearly that we can't put army into a box. We can't say, oh, it's part of the Mediterranean classical world , or, oh, it's part of the world of Iran. It's kind of doing a lot of different things. And that is why this material is so important to study because it's not tidy. It complicates our, of the ancient world the way no other tradition does. And that's a wonderful lesson to teach anybody that it's not simply, oh, we have Greek and Roman statues. We have Persian policies . No, it's , uh , what we see in Armenia is, is really demonstrates that it's a wonderful example, a unique example of a culture that has , uh , a number of different traditions and that are, that are kind of merging. But, but it also gives us a chance. I'm just going to jump on another thing. You just a chance to say that, just because we can see the same ideas in , um, in [inaudible] art objects that we see in a Syria, that doesn't mean that one or the other was copying. Right. So for example, why would somebody in [inaudible] era Armenia , uh , want or make an object that looks like it was from , uh, Syria, if you stop worrying about whether or not they're it's derivative and you start asking, why would they want that? Were they competing? You know, what were they actually thinking about doing , um, things get so much more interesting and actually some of the newer archaeological , um, uh, projects and publications I'm thinking of [inaudible] work , um, are studying, for example , um, Persian era Armenian , uh, excavations and, and thinking about connections with Persepolis and with Iran, they don't just say, oh, our meetings were copying. They were actually doing something very special and special to them in an Armenian Sage RP to the north. And so I think what's so interesting is that archeology art history, those, those fields are changing. We don't think in terms of like origins and derivative anymore, things are much more interesting and complicated now. And it really allows us to rethink all this rich material that we have. But the , but I really want to emphasize that, you know, the Armenian pre-Christian Armenia is extraordinary for how it, it, it breaks , um, our , our kind of , um, preconceptions of what ancient art should be.

Speaker 4 30:13

Yeah. Cause we was limited to so many things. I mean, I, myself growing up, you know, any of the history that you're taught in school was Greek and Roman Greek and Roman and Greek and Roman. And that's about it even. I mean , I went to, I always mentioned this on the podcast is I went to Armenian schools growing up and even the army and history that we were taught, which really wasn't as in-depth as what we're trying to do here and then listening to some of your speeches and whatnot, it wasn't, this, it w it was still all referencing Greek and Roman style art. We didn't talk about anything else as far as I can remember. Yeah,

Speaker 3 30:48

Yeah. Right. And , and what we can do now is say, what is Greek? What is Roman, what does it mean for an Armenian king to want to see, you know, a Greek play or want to have in his temple, a Hellenistic style statue ? What, what was, what was that person thinking and how does it, how does it allow us to see Greek art in a different way? Cause it does, it means that we can squeak it. Those people who've been studying, you know , Hellenistic art for ages and ages can think about it in a new way. If they think about its reception and its modification and its appropriation in the context of Armenian elite culture. So there's so much potential to, to rethink everything we know about the ancient world, you know, looking at Armenia.

Speaker 2 31:37

Yeah. And , and I think, you know, the way Armenia was positioned back in, you know, that it was almost

Speaker 4 31:44

Like geographic , uh,

Speaker 2 31:46

You know, there , they were kind of like the , uh, the guard were to pass through, you know, so that's why you see the, these connections with the Greeks and the Syrians and so much so,

Speaker 4 31:56

And hence why one of the questions, I mean, whether it could ever be answered or not, like, were they innovative? You know, it's like, is there, is there, is there information out there that shows that maybe, Hey, you know, since the way the doctrine tells us is , is Greek and Roman Greek and Roman everything derived from that apparently, but it's not the case. Right . Hence why you kind of wonder, you start asking a question. I know I, myself have as an artist, were we innovative in any way, shape or form? I mean, it looks like we were, you know, especially in there . Yeah ,

Speaker 3 32:27

Absolutely. I don't think there's any question I think, and I think whenever an artisan , you know , sort of is confronted with an object , um , or a site or a monument and works with it, but new things happen. And , and I think that , um, that, that, that if you, and if you think about also not just the finished product, okay. Maybe you have like , um, you know , uh , a kind of a hot harness piece in the shape of a stag. And there are these beautiful examples of that in , um, from pre-Christian Armenia. But then if you think about how those objects were used, you know, so, so some of them have little bells attached. So when they , when you drove your horses, you would hear sounds, and you would see, you know, you would see these, these wonderful stags , you know, these bronze stacks, so that the whole experience of this work it was , um, and that's another piece with pre-modern art that these are objects that were meant to be used and experienced . They weren't meant to be sitting in a vitrine or , or hanging from a wall. So they were part of your, they were part of your whole kind of an extension of your material, your physical experience. So when you add that to the picture that helps us further complicate this idea of like model and copy or innovation versus derivation. Um, and , and so that's important too. And I think it's, it's to be able to imagine what the pre-Christian Armenian experience of these bikes , can you imagine what it was like to go to Garney and to see this amazing site ? Like, what would that have meant to Fremont? Yeah, exactly. I mean, and the bath, the bath is the beauty of those mosaics in the, in the bath, that Garney is, is also a wonderful example. What did it mean to the people who used it? What was it like to sit in the bath with water and look down and see those mosaics? So , um, in that landscape, there's so many interesting questions to ask. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 34:22

Oh man. It's just like this thirst to, to learn so much. Um, that's , uh , I think that kind of also leads in, like, prior to my question is I want, I want to talk about Hodgkin's . Um, as we all know, we have amazing carvings of Hodgkins throughout our median, or mean Highlands in general , uh , uh, which some have been destroyed obviously to false fire history by we know Turkey. And those are big on ,

Speaker 4 34:52

Um, now was , was this

Speaker 2 34:54

Carving art forms , uh, something that was around prior , uh , to our acceptance of Christianity, which then evolved into what we see. So abundantly , uh, throughout the region. Yeah.

Speaker 3 35:06

So that's a , that's a wonderful question because what it asks us to do is to think again about, you know, how do we understand , um, how do we understand Hodge cars and how do we understand the relationship between the clutch cars and what came before them? I would put to you this , um, there's some really interesting examples of Uber, Archie , and steelies that have been carved with crosses and carved with crosses with, and clearly they were carved with process like during the Christian period. It's not like that before. So , um, so that these are reused Sealys and they were reused and Christianized by adding cross designs. Now are those flashcards , are, are they , uh, are , are T and Steelers that are reused. And I think the question , um, is , is an , is an important one as we consider the problem of the development of the cash card , the cash card for, for, if you , you know, the, the textbook definition is this form that developed in the ninth century, our earliest inscribed examples are from the ninth century. There's one from Garney , for example. Um , and there's one from art off from , uh , that early period. And so we tend to talk about the development of the clutch car from, from that point onward. And then we look at regional variations when we look at chronological developments , et cetera, et cetera. But if you start thinking, well, what, who , what did the first person who cards are, what were , what was, you know, touch onto our thinking about when , uh , he , um, or, you know, Mario , maybe, you know, what were they thinking about when, when they carved? Um, and, and, and one can imagine that if that you are, that you, you had in your, in your own mental landscape, the example of uprights from the past, like those steelies, we know that , uh , those steelies survived and were thought about those who were artsy and steelies were thought about and wondered about by Christians . So, so too , so it's a tricky question to answer there. I don't think there's a biological imperative of Armenians to create uprights and stick them in the ground. That's my view. But I also think that being a landscape, being part of that landscape, if you're, if you're an Armenia and , and , and you want to create something that, that would have come to your mind, because you, you had a kind of a memory kind of social memory of these are Archie and steelies and a lot of the , and you , you, you know, they're, they're examples that are , um, at sites like [inaudible] or [inaudible] . So , um, or in Vaughan , where there are a whole bunch of these steelies that were recurved and inserted into churches as spolia, we call it spotlit re recycled and steelies forming parts of these churches. So, and then we can talk about medieval Chronicles that , uh , Christian Armenian Chronicles that talk about these steelies. So I think what we have to do is think about memory, as well as everything else, you know, memory the past in the past, how would a Costco card Carver have thought of the idea of a conch car might very well have to do with what, what his or her memories were , um, of , uh, of, and what they thought of is old and sacred, because it might've been something like an Archie and steely , you know?

Speaker 4 38:25

Yeah. It's always fascinated me because, I mean, during my abundant visits, about what 10 plus years ago , um, I unfortunately haven't been there since 2010, but there was a, there was a time period over a five-year span where I visited quite often. I mean, she'd go into some of the museums and just seeing, and in church backyards or whatever, just on the , just, just on the grounds, you see some of the unbelievable Hodge cars. I mean, again, since I was a kid I'd been nerd blew me away. I think that's what really drafts me, like back to my roots, to be honest with you. Yeah. And it, it , um , it, I have this massive fashion fascination about it. I've talked to Vic about it a bunch of times. I'm like, I'm obsessed with Hodge cutters , like am absolutely obsessed with it . Yeah.

Speaker 3 39:08

I get it. I am too. I mean, they are, they are extraordinary. And the way they develop, I mean, if we want to talk about unique and innovation, I think that's where I would. There's nothing like that. Um, I , you know, I mean, I know the comparison with Irish high crosses often made, but OSH cars are, you know , um, physically there's so meticulous. And so , um, sophisticated, and, and I really, you know, I remember, I mean, I think we all think we know clutch cards , you know, but , um, when I, when I was writing, it's like, that's such a mistake. Anything that you from looking and opening your eyes is just, I think it's a mistake. Um , but I was working on them for my art of Armenia book and, you know, just taking a couple and doing a really, really close examination. You know, what we call slow looking in art history, where you just, you don't, you know , you spend an hour just looking at this thing. And I was so amazed. It was the , um , a 1291 Hutch bar from Gosha Ivanka . And I was just amazed at the level of complexity, the level of, and now we're talking about not in fact physically more than one level, multiple levels of carving of this minute , uh , uh, you know, fretwork. And , um, and so, yeah, I mean, it's, I agree it's, it is, it's just extraordinary sophistication and it makes me want to ask questions, like, what did this mean? What did it, what did it mean to stand in front of this and venerate, you know, what were you thinking about? What were you meant to be thinking about? I think there are many ways to answer that question.

Speaker 4 40:47

I mean, as, as an artist, I same questions you're asking sometimes I'll look at them and anything, anything any artist ever makes you always want to apply some sort of symbolism to it, right. Any sort of , even if it's like, you know , corner of it, or maybe the whole thing, but you have so much intricacy with these. And, and again, you touched on something about Irish , um , Irish crosses or cross stones. I've also realized that there's , there's quite a similarity between a lot of the etching that you find on clutch cars and Celtic. Yes, yes.

Speaker 3 41:18

Yeah. The knots and the interlace and the weave. Um , it's true. I'm, I am amazed, you know, with the Armenian scotch cars. I always, you know, the more I think about them, the more I think that there is when you talk about sort of the meaning , um, that a lot of them of course are highly abstract, you know, sometimes with no figures. And I think w you know, I don't know, I'm just going to say this. I feel like that idea of looking at something that is so immensely complex, too complex, really for you to comprehend in a, in a moment or even more, but that, you know, is conflict , you know, it's complex, but you don't know how complex exactly. That that was meant to be a metaphor for the divine, that itself, that idea that standing in front of you is this, is this almost unknowable thing, right. Um, is, is I think very powerful. So , um, yeah, I I'm , I'm a huge Hodge car fan,

Speaker 4 42:22

So you've never looked at it that way in terms of the complexity of the divine.

Speaker 3 42:26

Yeah . Yeah. I mean, and, and, and th there , you know, when I think again of this 1291, I mean, you get big organized units. Like maybe it's the roundel at the bottom, of course, the cross sometimes borders, but that, that that's understandable. But then when you start thinking about all the knots and all the tiny, you know, tendrils or weavings, like at is now getting involved , um, you know, that that's beyond you so that there's, in some ways it's simple , in some ways it's much just unimaginably complex.

Speaker 4 43:04

Yeah . And , and this kind of segues me into my next question or topic. I mean , um, most of these are made, if not, all of them are made of doof CARF , right. A lot of them are, and , and visiting the region, anybody who's ever been to the region enough sees even in modern day, a lot of the architecture, it , even in Turkey, I've been given to Georgia , I'm sure you visited all of these sites. Plenty of times you see even modern architecture still using doof cot , because it's so abundant in the area . Right. And it's a soft poorest stone that you can work off of , um, have was this with, with some of your studies that you've done with some of the fortresses in Vaughan and with ed Boonie , and we can move into talking about some of the bigger structures, was this also the same thing that was used in the architecture as well in some of the fortresses even dating all the way back then, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 3 43:59

Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I think that the volcanic stone, Tufts stone basalt, or used , um, for the fortresses, I think, you know, it also depends on where, so in CULA Kia , we have some different kinds of , um, I think there's some more limestone use , like I think of rum CLA, but , um, for the most part, it's that it's that incredibly plentiful, volcanic stone that's quarried and , uh, and used. And then we can't forget too , that , um, that in the pre-Christian period, we have more evidence for what's called subclavian masonry, which is not mortar core, but it's solid, solid blocks of stone , um, that are huge. But then with the medieval period, you start seeing what's called rubble masonry, which is , um, where you get the stones , uh, as kind of facing stones with a core of rebel and mortar, that's incredibly strong, so strong that you can remove. And you see this, if you've been to Western Armenia, you've seen where they've removed the facing stones from, or try , you know , tried to remove facing stones, but this, the building still stands because the core is actually functioning as a structural member. It's that strong, it's like put salon concrete as like layers and layers. Yeah. And it, and it's just like, it's just incredibly strong and obviously also resilient when it comes to seismic events. So , um, it's a , it's, that's, I think one of the reasons that we have so many standing churches , monasteries,

Speaker 2 45:33

Yeah. It's amazing how, the way they designed it. And we're comparing nowadays, especially in California, when they build buildings, you know, with the , the spring system for it to sway, they obviously realized that there's earthquakes in that region and the way they designed it based on weight and how they put the layers together for it to sustain itself. Yeah . Yeah .

Speaker 4 45:54

It's shocking with, with all the seismic app activity that even we've learned through history that have happened in that area, more and more of the architecture hasn't been leveled.

Speaker 3 46:04

Well, it's so interesting because I think it's true that the architects were very aware of , um , of earthquakes. They studied failure and they made empirical studies to determine how to improve. So we have the example of Sadat , the architect, who goes to huggy , Sophia, and who ends up preparing the dome of the Hagia Sophia after there were a lot of earthquakes in the latter 10th century. So he, he repairs that dome. And then he , he also in Armenia, he studies the ruins of [inaudible] , which had already collapsed by the time he, so he studied those and then built a copy of [inaudible] in Ani, the church of God geek or the Gregory Church. So here we, and we know this from attacks that tells us that's what he did, which is very rare to have information about an architect in, in the middle ages period, because we don't, you know, that wasn't a period where you have individual artists that it's not like now with van golf or whatever, you know, there were master masons, but these were artisans. They weren't, but occasionally you'll get mentions of [inaudible] Manuel, the architect of Optima , but what's so striking about that is that we know he made a study of structural failure. We know he did that. And, and we know he worked at Augie Sophia , which failed. So it's an incredible thing to get that kind of insight into building practice and into , um, you know , uh , you know, the stabilization. How do you stabilize a building? How do you build a building that succeeds instead of fails?

Speaker 4 47:35

Oh , that's , I mean, it's, it's, it's still mind blowing to me. I mean, especially with, I mean, not to touch on a dark topic, but 1988 earthquake was 88 or 89, 88 .

Speaker 2 47:44

Right. Um,

Speaker 4 47:46

It caused so much damage in, in Lennon , argon and speed dock and you kind of wonder, right. Like yeah . How many of these stood the test of time and then in the modern day, I mean, again, not to touch on a dark topic, but it's so interesting to me,

Speaker 3 48:04

The Soviet buildings didn't do as well. Right . Did it , yeah. It's, it's um, yeah, it tells you something, doesn't it, it's , uh, it's really interesting. And I think, you know , um, you know, hopefully we'll keep learning, but, but that empirical process, which really guided builders is , um, I think we owe a lot to that, that passing on of traditional knowledge and , and, and , um , memory from the past, hopefully,

Speaker 2 48:36

You know, the whole, the , you know, just the art form of , uh , Hodge Cod is and everything. It , hopefully it's continuing to pass from generation to generation. Um, let's talk a bit about the churches and monasteries. Um, we immediately think about the city of 1001 churches , uh, which is Ani. Uh, if you can talk a bit about Ani specifically and why so many churches were built during this time. Sure.

Speaker 3 49:04

So Ani , um, it's important to , uh, to note was a, was it important , um, site , or it was a settlement , uh, already before the Christian era. And , um, and if you've been there, you know, it's a dramatic , uh, it's a dramatic site that has natural protection on two sides. So it's a good , it's sort of like you think about Gany and the way that situated it's. Um, uh , it's one of these kind of just naturally defended sites. So , uh, and we do have , um, uh, anecdotal evidence for , um, for artifacts from before the Christian period, but then in the Christian period, it was part of the COMSOL con dynasties , um , terrain. Um, there is some there's debate over what parts of Ani , uh, are pre , um, pre broil . And, but then in the Royal period, so in the 10th, 11th centuries went on, he was a capital of the Royal by cartoony dynasty. Then we have the construction of a whole bunch of churches. And , um, and that continues into the 13th century. I think that, you know , part of the reason for the impulse to build can be , um, that that can be explained or, or can be not explained exactly, but is reflected in the inscriptions. And that talk about, you know, who was building what, so we know, for example, the very rich merchant in the 13th century, two grand opponents built a church at Ani that really reflects his immense wealth and his, his profit made off of the silk trade. Um, and we also see, of course the cathedral, which was , um, a Royal patronage. So th the number of churches is a Testament to the wealth of the city, but it's also, again thinking about, you know, why things are built, you reading the inscriptions and sort of, you know, wondering about them. They're built almost every donation. Inscription is it's built for the salvation of the donor, so, and the donor's family. So, you know, we can imagine that if you think about sort of social practices, that that was something that Royals did like queen , um, Khatami day built the cathedral of Ani after her husband died, she continued it and finished it. Then you have other elites who maybe wanted to also, you know, build something and have someone remember them , uh, by it. And so we have other churches that are also in Ani all around Ani , they're doing it. So I think there are a bunch of things I think it's , uh , it's clearly political, it's a display of wealth and power is a display of piety. Um, but there's also, I'm sure this idea that you know, of the, of the usefulness of having , uh , having a place where monks and priests are praying for you after your death , um, in perpetuity. Um, those are, I think some of the reasons why you would, you know, you would, you see all those churches, but it also, I think, has to do with the fact that it was, it was an urban place. It was a highly densely populated place starting in the 10th century. And so one needs, you know, churches for the communities, but, and not just churches above-ground , but of course, churches also carved into the rock. Um, and another, another interesting question would be like, well, how many people went to what church on what day? You know, I mean, I would love to know that kind of information, how many of these churches were private and how many of them were open to, to, you know, largest immunity . So

Speaker 2 52:43

It shows the population that lived there, you know, how massive it was that they had this many

Speaker 4 52:50

That, and , um , I mean, you can imagine, cause it was in more or less the center of the silk silk road, right. Or passage way. Um, a lot of people probably, you know, practice their faith at the time kind of, you know, going through the area here and there, you know, merchant days and merchant line .

Speaker 3 53:07

Yeah. There's a wonderful story that I'll just tell you because not because it's directly related because it's interesting. Um, so in the early 20th century around 19, was it in the late 19th, early 20th century, a prince Maximilian of Saxony actually goes to Ani and he craze and the church have taken on Honda and he celebrates a Latin mass and the church of Teagan Hornets and prays for , um, uh, you know, the Armenians there. And , um, he, I mean, it's just such an interesting image of this guy from , um, Fribourg who is a prince, not just the guy who is celebrating a Latin mass in that church , um, of tick on Hornets. So , uh, yeah, but there were, you can imagine how filled in the middle ages, the, those, those churches were with, with singing and with, and precess pre-sessions from church to church. Um, it's and , and the relics too . Um, so one thing that I've actually just started noticing is we have really good photos taken , um, by drones , uh, of the site around the cathedral and the cathedral had all these chapels all around it. They don't survive anymore, but we see the imprints of them and the ground is going to look east of the cathedral all around were , were chapels that were dedicated to monks or to , um, were funerary sites for monks. Um, the sh the relics of Saint [inaudible] were actually transferred to Ani. And we think we know where they were kept Easter , the cathedral and like around little round church. So there were so many more than what we know. I mean, maybe not 1,001, but the point is that, you know, we have to imagine how built up this city was with churches and that they function not just as envelopes for the liturgy, but they functioned as real points on the, her , like you would just, you would think about like , what that would look like to see so many pointed [inaudible] and domes , um, in that space, it would have really, I think, created the sense of the density of sacred spaces at Ani , incredibly densely , um, religious place, but also in houses also shops baths , you know? Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's when you go, it's wonderful to , to think about that past. Now

Speaker 2 55:41

You mentioning with the drone shots and having that kind of like the outline of what used to be , uh , the condition of the churches , um, right now, is there any corporation with archeologists to help a preserving what's left of it?

Speaker 3 55:56

Yes. So , um, and it's ongoing with Ani . Um, Ani is , uh, unusual in the context of the Republic of Turkey and that there has been now sustained attention and internationally sort of accepted , um, preservation being done at the site. Uh, I've been involved with that for many years now. And , um, hopefully we'll continue to be , um, there's work that's been done at the church of [inaudible] , which is , um, one that, that is famous because it's kind of half standing, it's a rotunda the past standing , um, and where there's stabilization and actually some reconstruction with the con with the collaboration of , um, ma masons from the Republic of Armenia. So it's , it is an unusual example of collaboration between Turks and Armenians and between the Turkish ministry of culture and tourism and the world monuments fund, which is , uh , is an American NGO that is , um, you know , uh, prestigious and sort of internationally, highly regarded. Um, so for the most part, you know, that's not the case with Armenian churches , um, that are in Turkey, but , um, but Ani is course in so many ways. It's, it's unique. It's also UNESCO world heritage site, you know , as of 2016,

Speaker 4 57:24

Going to be a little follow up question to that was how , how are the Turks cooperating? And again, this my attempt to sh to smear or cause any issues, but , um , I've always wondered. I've always been curious, even as a little boy, it's like, you learn more and more about it and you hear more and more about it. Okay. So what are on the Turkish side of things? What are they doing? Are they being cooperative or are they not being cooperative ? Yeah,

Speaker 3 57:49

I think it's, well, first of all, say that the, when we talk about them, what we're talking about, really, the decision-makers are the ministry of culture and tourism. So as much as there are plenty of people that I work with , um, that are, you know, that I can, we can have back and forth all that. I don't, you know, the ministry of culture and tourism, they're the ones who are making the decisions. And so , um, and they are highly bureaucratic and fairly opaque. Um, but they, that's where , uh, you need, you need people like the world monuments fund who know how to sort of talk to that world. So what I've noticed, and I'll only speak to my own experiences that , um, you have to work carefully, you have to be very aware of, you know, what they might be thinking and how they might be thinking, for example, with surfer gage , you know, there was a real concern about stones falling on workers who were working in the church because , um, if you know that church, you know, again, it's half there , when you start moving the stones around underneath, you know, you're , you're, de-stabilizing , uh, something that is very fragile. And so it was a kind of, I think, learning curve for everyone to realize, oh yeah, if they're workers there in that space, you're going to have to be really careful. And so there was the decision to build a scaffolding scaffolding, to, to sort of stop stones from falling directly on top of people. I mean, that's one example, but you know, it's, it's not easy. It's not easy to work with , um, with, with, with them, but it's, it's, it's possible. And so what I always tell myself, because, you know, it gets really complicated working on , uh, you know, an Armenian monument in who's legal owners, legal owners, it's the Republic of Turkey. I always think, well, what's best for the monument. You know what? I don't care about storing points. I don't, I really, you know, I'm not, I'm not a prognosticator. I can't solve world peace, but what I can do is put the monument first so that when I'm gone and you know, when , uh, my students are , you know, when future generations are able to visit, they can still be there. And nobody's like making stuff up. I first and foremost, it has to be about the integrity of the monument and that I put above everything else, you know? So if that standing the monuments in good health, I'm happy. And , um , I don't worry about too much else that keeps it very simple for

Speaker 4 1:00:29

Me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a , it's a good approach when it comes to protecting, I mean, not just our culture, but all over the world, it doesn't matter, you know, there's been border shifting for thousands of years. Yeah. You know? Yeah,

Speaker 3 1:00:44

Absolutely. And, and I think, you know, we really have to teach people about, to respect old things, whether it's, you know, antique or whether it's a monument, but this stuff has been around for a lot longer than we have. And with any luck it will continue to be. But , um, but you know, pay it the respect that it deserves , uh , whatever culture it belongs to. And , um, you know, I , I, I feel that very strongly with the Armenian material, which isn't just a course about, you know , um, beautiful things, but it's, these are archives that on walls, you know, so there's a lot at stake, you know, when a wall comes down, that archive is gone and you may have wonderful records of it going back to the 19th century, but you don't have that archive anymore. It's it's Tom completely compromised. Um, so yeah, this , this it's, it's, it's a kind of funny thing working with , with preservation of Armenian churches. It's so urgent, it's, you know, an earthquake had happened any day and a lot of these monuments are in emergency condition at the same time. It's incredibly complicated to get anything done. So it's a real it's it's um, it's

Speaker 4 1:01:56

What a catch 22, right? Yeah. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. Now, are they

Speaker 2 1:02:00

Trying to, when you say a preservation or are they trying to kind of restructured , so can we stand an earthquake or anything or,

Speaker 3 1:02:08

Yeah , yeah . Um, I, when I Trump , so when I go there to , to Ani and , and thereabouts and that region, we traveled with a seismologist , um, who actually specializes in that shaking table kind of experimentation where you, right . So , so they are, so that work is being done. I mean, not to say that , um, there would be radical changes to the monuments because the goal is always to, yeah, that

Speaker 2 1:02:32

Was my thing . Concern . Are they going to change things

Speaker 3 1:02:35

Around now that , you know , no, there , there won't be that there, but there will be an attempt to, to stabilize, to accommodate , um, for , for, you know, size seismicity. Um, but the goal is always to uphold international standards of preservation. Um, and now, because, because on is a UNESCO site, that's really even more, you know, crucial and important to abide by so that there will be minimal change to the , um, to the medieval structure only what is necessary to stabilize in the case of surpri gage , the behalf church that's that is going to be somewhat rebuilt because it's so compromised as just a half church. And it has been deteriorating in ways that are not necessarily obvious to if you're just looking at it, but when you start studying it, you can cracks getting wider, et cetera, et cetera. So in that case, there will be, there is more work going on , um, to complete it, but that's because of just, that is actually a stabilization because left to its own devices, it wouldn't be able to stand.

Speaker 4 1:03:40

Yeah. Uh , it's it's, it's, it's good to hear about that. Cause I mean, like I said, it's, it's, I haven't done enough research myself to understand the political side of things. I mean, I know there's restoration going on, but never really dove into, you know, who's cooperating, who's not cooperating. And again, I'm not trying to single out the Turk Turkish side of things,

Speaker 3 1:04:05

Right. I'll say bad restoration is not, it knows no particular. I mean, anybody can do it and we, you know, it happens everywhere that restoration , um , it's not limited to anybody. So I think, but I think, you know, really the most important point is to ensure that these monuments stand and that's, that's absolutely. I mean, that's the heartbreaking thing with what we've seen , um , in arts off and not Chavon , um, because once they're gone, they're gone forever and that's it, you know, it's just a picture, it's a , maybe an old photograph, but you don't have it anymore. Um, so that's, that's the most important thing for me anyway. I mean, everybody has the one important

Speaker 4 1:04:50

Thing, so that's fine , of course. But you know, when you're trying to get in touch with your roots and try and understand more about almost everything, that's all encompassing in terms of art, architecture , um, history, kingdoms, Kings, Queens, et cetera. Um, with any particular type of history, you know, you, you can't lose sight of, I guess, you know, the fact that we inherit these things, but tend to not want to not deep dive, but even just kind of peel off a couple layers and understand more about them. Right? Yeah . Um , yeah . And that would kind of lead me into my next question would be, you know , how important is that for anybody, even on a surface level, you don't have to be a scholar or anybody like that. And , you know, it's kind of what we're trying to do here, Vic and I is shed light on topics like these and maybe peel off those layers and have people kind of spark spark an interest in your opinion, like how, how do you approach that? Especially with some of your students who are non-Armenian and now you turn that into bring that towards Armenians, you know , and how important would that? Yeah .

Speaker 3 1:06:00

Yeah. I'll, I'll speak from my own experience than say, you know, I was never studious. I really, I, I D I got bored very easily and I think that, and I fail, I fail so many times like failing, you know, big things, big exams. Like I just I've always felt that I was kind of a dumb one. And , um, I have to say that so much of learning and curiosity is about feeling like you are confidence enough to be curious, like, why not ask, like, okay, yeah. This thing is ancient, but why not ask, like, who made it and where was it? Exactly. And so often I, you know, part of, I think a way to get students excited is to make clear, like how much we just don't know and how much, like any kind of speculation is useful speculation. You don't have to have read like a million books in order to ask basic questions. And so often it's the most basic questions that don't get asked. I see this over and over again. You know, I often tell my students the most famous monuments are often the ones that nobody's worked on, you think, oh, so much has been done on the obvious of VR cathedral. And then lo and behold, you find something basic. That's been staring you in the face and you've never even seen it. So , um, I really try to stress to students and , um, and anybody who will listen, how, you know, be like, be confident that you know, enough to ask questions and to wonder about things. Because if you do just a little bit, the monuments returned back to you and the images returned back to you so much, they talk. So almost immediate rates you, and they'll talk to you and tell you things, just, you know, be open to it. And , and don't worry about not knowing this or that. You know, none of us know everything.

Speaker 4 1:07:53

That's one of the intimidating factors with anything. Like sometimes you come across people that know so much about so many different things and you kind of feel sheltered or like you back off and you feel intimidated. It's happened to me a million times again, you know, we're not scholars, we're just trying to find out more like everyone else, you know, we're on this journey with everybody else, you know? And , and, and sometimes when you come up , I mean, in the past, not maybe now, but you come across somebody who's a little bit more intimidating with so much information. And you're like, okay, that's it, this isn't for me.

Speaker 3 1:08:23

Yeah. I know Alyssa . That's what academics are like, period, that's my life. Right. And I I've always felt a little bit like, well, that's not me, you know? And I try to be really honest about, you know, saying, look, there's , um , I mean, I'm not, I'm not that person. I , I can't, you know , be pompous about this and I won't pretend I'm the smartest person in the room. That's not interesting to me. I'd much rather be, you know, looking at a hush car, you know, and, and, and thinking about the past. That's interesting. And I think it's interesting for most people, if they just, you know, let themselves do it in a way, and don't be worried about what you don't know, and don't work be worried about asking questions that reveal your own ignorance, because, you know, it's just, it's, it's just, you're losing out, you know, and life is short.

Speaker 2 1:09:10

I think also we ourselves tend to put these people on that kind of a pedestal. Uh , like you said, as far as pompous, you know, there's , uh , and that's what makes us nervous. We feel like we're not good enough, or we were not educated enough. So , uh, you know, and then once you start talking to these people and we've experienced this from this , you know, and all of a sudden they're like, wait , wait , we can talk to this person. We can ask questions.

Speaker 3 1:09:37

Yeah. Not only that you might , I mean, I'm just going to say this, you might be smarter than they are. Who knows, like, you know what I mean? It's not about it's , it's so much about the kind of theater of , um , the great academic, the professor, the wizard of Oz kind of thing. I mean, not always. And obviously people have learning and , and all that, and that's great and very, you know , one respects it, but at the same time, a lot of it, I mean, it can be a defense mechanism. It can, it can simply be a learned behavior. That's worked in the past. You know, I'm not, I mean, for me, I find that really boring and not interesting. And I like to poke people like that by asking them really basic questions that are like, wait, because I used to also be afraid. I used to be so afraid of saying anything that might reveal that I don't know , you know, enough. And now I realize nobody ever knows enough. We don't know enough. Nobody does. And if anybody pretends they do there , that's there , they're full of it. It's nobody knows everything.

Speaker 2 1:10:36

It also has to do a little bit with our current social environment, with social media and everything, because there's so much information that is out there with just like 30 seconds snippets . So people read it and then they think they know everything, you know, I think, but if you actually research and learn 20% of what you're trying to, you know, ask the question, but I think you'll be more comfortable. But the greatest question, especially in history is why that's all , everything else, everything else just automatically start going by just saying why exactly.

Speaker 3 1:11:11

And it makes you ask how do you know what you know, you know, why do you know that, you know, what, what, what, what are all the things that came to even make you ask that question? Um, it's, it's a wonderful thing to have a brain and to, to use it, to confront something. And , um, and everybody has one. So it's a great thing.

Speaker 2 1:11:31

Yes , it is. Well , um, I think we're out of questions, right? And we are out of questions. Uh, Dr . [inaudible] , are you , uh , do you have anything you wanna mention, cover anything ? We might've

Speaker 3 1:11:42

Missed? Just one, one thing. Um, so I am doing a show together with my students at talks called , um, connecting threads, survivor objects, and it's a show small show of Armenian liturgical textiles from the Armenian museum and Watertown, and also , uh , from the museum of fine arts in Boston. It's a beautiful show of , um, 18th and 19th century liturgical textiles. And , uh, S um, if you just go to like Tufts art gallery , um, on the internet, you can find it. And it's , uh, it's going to be really beautiful. It's going to be on from September to December, but they'll also be an online component, but wonderful chance to look at , um, vestments and liturgical curtains from places that sometimes those churches in, in almost all those cases, those churches are not functioning. They're either in, you know , the Ottoman former Ottoman empire one example from a notch Chavon . So it's going to be beautiful. I mean, yeah. So that's, that's just a whole other dimension of really interesting. So

Speaker 2 1:12:45

Anybody's in , in , in the area of Boston or just in Massachusetts, they can visit or is it open to the public? Okay. Yeah . Okay. Okay. Shall we take a trip to Boston who you never know? You never know. We'll see. Let's wait . Yep . Richard . Um, I do want to mention , uh, her , uh , book again, you can find it again. It's called the art of Armenia and introduction. It is on Amazon. Um , I've ordered it. I've been ordering so many books lately. I've ordered it. I haven't received it yet, but , um, you know, I just , uh , definitely once I get it, I will dive into it and learn a lot more. So again, that's on Amazon, you can , um , definitely order it and just support this whole great, you know, everything that she's doing, we need to support more Armenians like this and , and to , to no problem. Um, I do want to mention about our , uh, you know, we w when it comes through our , uh, website , uh, we have that new promotion. A lot of people have been asking about it , uh, or with our sculptures. If you go to med HEDIS, nour.com , uh, you can, if you want to buy both , uh , sculptures the collectibles , uh, you will get a free t-shirt and a mug of your choice. Uh, also don't forget that $30 from each sculpture goes to me , arcing.org . Uh, they are the organization that is helping , uh , the displaced soldiers , families from the recent war. And that is , uh, [inaudible] M I a S E n.org. Um, uh , you can go there and donate whatever you can, but again, we will be doing any $30 from each sculpture to them. Um, and , uh, let's see, what else is there anything we missed that covers everything well , um, Dr. Christina, Marazzi thank you so much for doing this. We appreciate it. And hopefully we'll have you , you know, on a future show. Talk about more in detail. Wonderful. Thank you both. Thanks , bro. Thank you . Yeah, so everyone , uh, thanks for listening till the next episode. Take care.

Speaker 1 1:15:18

[inaudible] .